Someone please let me know if Peter has the stones to ask Jonah about his pre-party petulance and his disgraceful behavior at the WHCD, not to mention his meltdown after reports of his conduct leaked.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Now, Peter claims that there's no one in Washington is sympathetic to Castro. This after members of the Congressional Black Caucus just hailed Castro's Cuba following a trip.

Jonah has it precisely correct: the modern left, particularly the college campus left, is very sympathetic to various leftist dictators, including Castro and Hugo Chavez.

good point. But conservatives side with Israel, and as Peter reminds, apartheid era South Africa, to no small degree because they consider those peoples as white. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I think conservatives identify with the self reliance and willingness of those two peoples to fight for their way of life.

That's more or less accurate, but for the Right's close relationship with the Saudi royal family and other Middle Eastern despots (other than Hussein and Qhaddafi). The sensible Left is close to them too of course.

I don't think the Right sides with Israel because they're white, but because they're a western, democratic state in a sea of near eastern despots.

Jonah and other conservatives are wasting their time if they think they are fighting to restore conservative governance to the US. From the drudge link yesterday we learn that the average federal employee pay and benefits is $75K. The presence of the enormous national debt means taxes can never be reduced to levels that foster individual entrepeneurism. The constituency for federal handouts dwarfs the self reliant base of the republican party. The sooner conservatives start advocating to allow states to exit from the federal complex, the sooner republicans can reclaim control of their lives.

Rubbish. Who cares? It's not like he yelled to Obama, "I hope your kidneys fail Hussein Obama". You'd have something if he had said that.

... too late for any discussion of the big brouhaha at The Corner.

Quoting Lyle: I don't think the Right sides with Israel because they're white, but because they're a western, democratic state in a sea of near eastern despots.

I dont see the difference.

What does "exit from the federal complex" mean to you Denville?

The West isn't per se "white". Americans aren't even a race.

Quoting Lyle: Who cares?

I do. His behavior was a disgrace, and he owes all of us an apology. He should never have been invited in the first place, and he certainly should never be allowed to return. Also, he should be fired by the Los Angeles Times, and if the National Review has any hope of regaining respectability, they should fire him, too.

Quoting Lyle: What does "exit from the federal complex" mean to you Denville?

Ideally it would be a system where the states are one in their face to the world. One military, one state dept. Not so sure about 1 foreign trade policy, but that is the idea for foreign policy. On the domestic front, I guess interstate commerce has to be governed by the feds. Immigration should be a state by state concern. Esp in terms of people who are not US citizens. No IRS. The feds get their money from lump sum state payments. States can have a joint social security or health care or FDA or OSHA administered at a national level if they want. But each state can go its own way on that front. -Steve

Balderdash, that's not disgraceful. That's just picayune partisanship. Wanda Sykes shouldn't be punished and neither should J. Gold. Republicans are dissenters now, get used to it.

Not going to happen. We already did the Articles of Confederation and it didn't work. One could also look to the Confederate States of America, which was political debacle. Hamilton's view of America has won out over Jefferson's view. There's no going back now.

Quoting bjkeefe: Someone please let me know if Peter has the stones to ask Jonah about his pre-party petulance and his disgraceful behavior at the WHCD, not to mention his meltdown after reports of his conduct leaked.

How dare they dissent! Ban them! It's disgraceful that they didn't cheer a second rate comedian wishing death on political opponents!

This brouhaha is a good thing for conservatives. The sensible Right need to step in and regain control from the hyper partisan "they're all commie" types.

Quoting Lyle: This brouhaha is a good thing for conservatives. The sensible Right need to step in and regain control from the hyper partisan "they're all commie" types.

Yes, compare an actual debate with the petty personal attacks from the left's blogosphere group.

Quoting bjkeefe: Someone please let me know if Peter has the stones to ask Jonah about his pre-party petulance and his disgraceful behavior at the WHCD, not to mention his meltdown after reports of his conduct leaked.

I dont like it that any conservatives attend that function. It is the annual meeting of the big government, big society and big industry crowd. That group is anti those who want to live a self reliant, locally focused life. Reading the wonkette report I dont see what Jonah did wrong. What was the anti gay part? Did he have the temerity to defend Carrie Prejean or something?

Yeah, as much as Hannity and Limbaugh go over the top, they're sensible people when pressed. John McWhorter was even on Hannity's show recently. Couldn't believe it.

You're forgetting that it's treasonous to in any way oppose Obama unless you're wanting to put George Bush and all of his officials in a gulag to await trial for terrrrrrrrible crimes. Unless it's that, you're just a traitor and you should lose your job.

Quoting Lyle: Not going to happen. We already did the Articles of Confederation and it didn't work. One could also look to the Confederate States of America, which was political debacle.

Hamilton's view of America has won out over Jefferson's view. There's no going back now.

I was just thinking about the articles of confederation today. That that document could be something modern day anti federalists could rally around. Yes, federalism was necessary for this country up until 2000. But, it is federalism that enables unchecked deficit spending. The authority to put all Americans in debt has to be broken.

Elaborate nikki. What's making you want to hide underneath your bed exactly?

I worry about a monstrous government as well Denville, and I'm worried we won't be able to get it under check for a very long while, if ever... but a de-centralized United States of America won't work. We know it won't work. It'll makes us all worse off as it did with our forefathers back in American antiquity circa the 1780's. Jeffersonianism is dead I think.

Quoting Lyle: Balderdash, that's not disgraceful. That's just picayune partisanship. Wanda Sykes shouldn't be punished and neither should J. Gold. Republicans are dissenters now, get used to it.

Jonah should be sent to jail for what he did, and he should be subjected to enhanced interrogation to find out if he knows of anyone planning to take the next step.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: You're forgetting that it's treasonous to in any way oppose Obama unless you're wanting to put George Bush and all of his officials in a gulag to await trial for terrrrrrrrible crimes. Unless it's that, you're just a traitor and you should lose your job.

Correct.

Quoting Lyle: Yeah, as much as Hannity and Limbaugh go over the top, they're sensible people when pressed.

John McWhorter was even on Hannity's show recently. Couldn't believe it.

Fox news, Hannity included is pretty bad. Glenn Beck is great. Fox news sunday is good. On the whole, I dont think it is a coincidence that the smarts and success of the republican party has declined as Fox News has solidified its place as the voice of the party. Fox news and republican politicians should have been excluded from the tea party gatherings.

The scary thing is that your answer really isn't just sarcasm.

Haha. I thought you guys were against torture. Guess you guys will just have to blacklist him McCarthy style.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: Fox news, Hannity included is pretty bad. Glenn Beck is great. Fox news sunday is good. On the whole, I dont think it is a coincidence that the smarts and success of the republican party has declined as Fox News has solidified its place as the voice of the party. Fox news and republican politicians should have been excluded from the tea party gatherings.

Glen Beck, like Bill O'Reilly, gets an unwarranted bad rap. They're far more civil, honest, and diligent than Olbermann.

Quoting Lyle: Haha. I thought you guys were against torture. Guess you guys will just have to blacklist him McCarthy style.

No, the beauty of it is you wingnuts have convinced me that "enhanced interrogation" isn't torture, and even if it is, we only do it once in a while, and even if we do it more than that, it works! So I say that Jonah should be arrested for making threats against the President of the United States and his family, and he should be strenuously interrogated to find out what else he knows. Can't be too careful, you know. Even if there's only a one percent chance ...

I concur. Beck and O'Reilly are actually pretty good, and oft middle of the road because they're not out and out partisans like Hannity. Hannity is the worse offender in my opinion. He's disgustingly partisan and is stuck in the 1980s with Ronald Reagan. Beck and O'Reilly also seem to better understand America and Americans than Limbaugh and Hannity. Beck and O'Reilly are not the monsters they're made out to be. Usually the people who go off on them haven't spent more than a minute watching them, from what I can tell... but the Left need their enemies as much as the Right needs theirs.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: The scary thing is that your answer really isn't just sarcasm.

Correct. I've had it with tolerating wingnuts exercising their so-called rights. Time to open up the FEMA camps. We can't be sure, after listening to Steve, that you all aren't planning a violent overthrow of the United States. He is calling for treason right now, and you are not condemning him, so you are on the list, too.

Quoting Lyle: I worry about a monstrous government as well Denville, and I'm worried we won't be able to get it under check for a very long while, if ever... but a de-centralized United States of America won't work. We know it won't work. It'll makes us all worse off as it did with our forefathers back in American antiquity circa the 1780's.

Jeffersonianism is dead I think.

I dont see why. And you are not giving any specifics in terms of the bad that would happen. I dont see the likelihood of a war between states. Geography protects the 50 states from foreign attack. I think it would be good to have competing governing systems in the country. States that lived within their means and had balanced budgets and low taxes would prosper. Downstate NY and coastal CA would implode on themselves.

Quoting bjkeefe: Correct. I've had it with tolerating wingnuts exercising their so-called rights. Time to open up the FEMA camps. We can't be sure, after listening to Steve, that you all aren't planning a violent overthrow of the United States. He is calling for treason right now, and you are not condemning him, so you are on the list, too.

All that straw must've cost you a fortune.

Quoting Lyle: I concur. Beck and O'Reilly are actually pretty good, and oft middle of the road because they're not out and out partisans like Hannity. Hannity is the worse offender in my opinion. He's disgustingly partisan and is stuck in the 1980s with Ronald Reagan.

Beck and O'Reilly also seem to better understand America and Americans than Limbaugh and Hannity. Beck and O'Reilly are not the monsters they're made out to be. Usually the people who go off on them haven't spent more than a minute watching them, from what I can tell... but the Left need their enemies as much as the Right needs theirs.

Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity, and Limbaugh should be banished from the airwaves immediately. They should be given one chance to recant everything they have ever said. Otherwise, they should be sent to prison in another country where they should spend the rest of their short-ass lives in agonizing pain.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: All that straw must've cost you a fortune.

I notice you are still not denying that you are in favor of committing treason.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: I dont see why. And you are not giving any specifics in terms of the bad that would happen. I dont see the likelihood of a war between states. Geography protects the 50 states from foreign attack. I think it would be good to have competing governing systems in the country. States that lived within their means and had balanced budgets and low taxes would prosper. Downstate NY and coastal CA would implode on themselves.

Steve is advocating treason, and no conservatives here are rejecting or renouncing him. This will be reported.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: I dont see why. And you are not giving any specifics in terms of the bad that would happen. I dont see the likelihood of a war between states. Geography protects the 50 states from foreign attack. I think it would be good to have competing governing systems in the country. States that lived within their means and had balanced budgets and low taxes would prosper. Downstate NY and coastal CA would implode on themselves.

Care to upload a configuration of how you think these states would subdivide? Because it's entirely unfeasable to imagine that Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, North Dakota, Rhode Island, etc. could feasibly exist on their own?

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Care to upload a configuration of how you think these states would subdivide? Because it's entirely unfeasable to imagine that Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, North Dakota, Rhode Island, etc. could feasibly exist on their own?

You are conspiring to commit treason. Screen shots have been taken.

That's what we have already though. Some states have gay marriage, others don't. Some states have capital punishment, others don't. During the Articles of Confederation and during the Confederate States of America state governments were printing their own currency and were setting up trade barriers between states. They did things that stifled economic growth. If you want our economy to drastically shrink, then the AoC is what you want, but I think that would be asinine.

Ah, so it is your intent to derail every line of discussion on this thread, probably out of spite to Jonah.

You're a hoot. Liberals always want to punish somebody for something. It's like the Puritans of Salem are still with us. Haha.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Jonah has it precisely correct: the modern left, particularly the college campus left, is very sympathetic to various leftist dictators, including Castro and Hugo Chavez. Just search out the number of Che stickers, buttons, and shirts on any university. There is no such affinity for dictators on the modern right, outside of the scant Buchananite wing.

Have you been on a college campus since 1975? Or, perhaps, 1946, which is what the term 'modern left' implies? (Just a tip: you might want to use the more, well, accurate term 'contemporary.') I spend a lot of time on a college campus famed for its leftism, and I must tell you, your cliches are way behind the time. Nobody professes fealty to Castro, and only one person I know (and I argue with him constantly about this) is a fan of the way Chavez operates. If there is any figure that inspires a troubling amount of worshipful awe, its our own democratically-elected president, Barack Obama. The occasionally spotted Che t shirt is a meaningless distraction. Update your cliches, man!

Haha. In your dreams bjkeefe, in your dreams.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Care to upload a configuration of how you think these states would subdivide? Because it's entirely unfeasable to imagine that Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, North Dakota, Rhode Island, etc. could feasibly exist on their own?

I dont see why any individual state could not make it on its own. It would be important that the ability of states to import and export not be interfered with. It would be the unproductive urban and rust belt areas that would have the hardest time adapting. Some cities would have to either depopulate or adopt a Milton Friedman Hong Kong economic model.

Quoting nikkibong: Have you been on a college campus since 1975? Or, perhaps, 1946, which is what the term 'modern left' implies? (Just a tip: you might want to use the more, well, accurate term 'contemporary.')

I spend a lot of time on a college campus famed for its leftism, and I must tell you, your cliches are way behind the time. Nobody professes fealty to Castro, and only one person I know (and I argue with him constantly about this) is a fan of the way Chavez operates. If there is any figure that inspires a troubling amount of worshipful awe, its our own democratically-elected president, Barack Obama. The occasionally spotted Che t shirt is a meaningless distraction.

Update your cliches, man!

I spend quite a bit of time on a university campus, and I'm basing this on plenty of empirical experience. Perhaps you're around people in engineering/natural sciences? I will say that it varies considerably by major, but many students in the social sciences, english, etc. are very liberal and sympathetic to tyrants (at least where I'm at ).

Enh... I think there are still a few. I'm not far removed from graduate school and I know some Chavez/Castro supporters. They're in the minority, but they exist. Multiculturalism still abounds and I found that people hold back on criticizing places like China and the Middle East due to the fact that they didn't want to sound too racist or too harsh, and not judgmental enough about America.

Does Jonah actually not understand why liberals objected more to Bush's spending than Obama's, or is he just being disingenuous? In any event, here are a few of the more obvious reasons: -Bush's spending was accompanied by massive tax cuts for the rich, an act of gross fiscal irresponsibility and inequity. Obama's is paid for by a repeal of those tax cuts. -Bush's spending was on things like war and subsidies for HMOs. Obama's is for expanding health care coverage and developing new sources of energy. -Bush ramped up spending while claiming the mantle of fiscal conservatism, an act of patent dishonesty. What Jonah seems to miss is that "spending" is not simply a category in itself, something to support or oppose. What the spending is on, and how it's paid for, is the most important thing!

Quoting DenvilleSteve: I dont see why any individual state could not make it on its own. It would be important that the ability of states to import and export not be interfered with. It would be the unproductive urban and rust belt areas that would have the hardest time adapting. Some cities would have to either depopulate or adopt a Milton Friedman Hong Kong economic model.

I love Milton Friedman, but Singapore and Hong Kong thrive due in large part to their status as sea ports. Being multilingual facilitators across multiple cultures also helps. I do not see where this is applicable to Kansas.

Quoting Lyle: You're a hoot. Liberals always want to punish somebody for something.

Oh, really? I thought our problem was we never wanted to punish anybody, we just wanted to give them therapy. Karl Rove said it, so it has to be true, right?

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Ah, so it is your intent to derail every line of discussion on this thread, probably out of spite to Jonah.

Incorrect. It is time to take the gloves off, and deal with the enemies of America. No more coddling. Jonah is beneath contempt, so I don't have any urge to spite him. I only care about seeing him interrogated, in an enhanced fashion, for life.

Quoting Lyle: Elaborate nikki. What's making you want to hide underneath your bed exactly?

Call me chicken, but I find flagrant racism (c.f. DenvilleSteve) a bit scary. Support for apartheid also troubling.

Quoting Lyle: That's what we have already though. Some states have gay marriage, others don't. Some states have capital punishment, others don't.

During the Articles of Confederation and during the Confederate States of America state governments were printing their own currency and were setting up trade barriers between states. They did things that stifled economic growth. If you want our economy to drastically shrink, then the AoC is what you want, but I think that would be asinine.

I agree that individual currencies and trade barriers between states is bad. More accurately, that one state cant physically block the imports and exports of another state. I dont see the need for the dept of labor, education, FDA, social security, unemployment insurance, health care, cap and trade, etc. All of that could be handled by the states.

I'm not Karl Rove. Karl Rove speaks for himself. The puritanical side of progressivism is why I won't ever be a progressive. Too judgmental and cruel for my tastes. Puritanism is puritanism, right or left.

Quoting Lyle: Haha. In your dreams bjkeefe, in your dreams.

A good plan can start with a dream.

Quoting nikkibong: Does Jonah actually not understand why liberals objected more to Bush's spending than Obama's, or is he just being disingenuous? In any event, here are a few of the more obvious reasons:

-Bush's spending was accompanied by massive tax cuts for the rich, an act of gross fiscal irresponsibility and inequity. Obama's is paid for by a repeal of those tax cuts.

-Bush's spending was on things like war and subsidies for HMOs. Obama's is for expanding health care coverage and developing new sources of energy.

-Bush ramped up spending while claiming the mantle of fiscal conservatism, an act of patent dishonesty.

What Jonah seems to miss is that "spending" is not simply a category in itself, something to support or oppose. What the spending is on, and how it's paid for, is the most important thing!

Many economists disagree with you concerning Bush's tax cuts being irresponsible. And I think the success of the country in rebounding from the Y2k bubble and then 9/11 supports Bush. Liberals are also ignoring the insane levels of pork. Obama has completely disregarded his commitments to open and honest government. Liberals who wined about earmarks now cheerlead Jack Murtha's outrageous antics.

Don't feed the trolls, Lyle.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Many economists disagree with you concerning Bush's tax cuts being irresponsible. And I think the success of the country in rebounding from the Y2k bubble and then 9/11 supports Bush.

Bush propped up his rich friends while creating no new jobs, while changing the budget from a surplus to a series of record deficits. He should be jailed for that alone.

Liberals are also ignoring the insane levels of pork.

Conservatives still don't have the slightest grasp of orders of magnitude. Your leading intellectual light on economic matters is "Joe" the "Plumber."

Quoting Lyle: I'm not Karl Rove. Karl Rove speaks for himself.

That is a step in the right direction, but it is insufficient. You must renounce Karl Rove and call for him to be sent to prison.

Quoting nikkibong: Call me chicken, but I find flagrant racism (c.f. DenvilleSteve) a bit scary.

Support for apartheid also troubling.

I never supported apartheid. I thought at the time of Mandela that the Afrikaners should have seceded back to their tribal lands in the orange free state. On Israel I have changed my position lately and think a two state solution leaves too little land for the Israelis. More fair that the Palestinians moved to Egypt and Jordan.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Don't feed the trolls, Lyle.

If he followed your advice, he would never respond to you.

Actually it is liberals who complained about Bush's debt and now welcome Obama's exponentially higher debt who do not recognize orders of magnitude. Not conservatives who see Jack Murtha's egregious excess and the Democrats' disregard for it.

Yeah, the government is bloated. There's no doubt about it, but it won't be easy to just kill department after department. What conservatives should do, in my opinion, is work to make it leaner and more effective. The truth of the matter though is that government is government, it's not a business, and politics will forever make it a mess and somewhat to completely inefficient. It is what it is.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Actually it is liberals who complained about Bush's debt and now welcome Obama's exponentially higher debt who do not recognize orders of magnitude. Not conservatives who see Jack Murtha's egregious excess and the Democrats' disregard for it.

Liberals are correct in seeing that Obama is (1) cleaning up the mess that Bush created and (2) investing wisely in the long-term health of the economy. Conservatives are pretending that they care about deficits because they can't think of anything else to attack Obama with. They are also talking about pork because most of their brains are too small to deal with anything except snickering at trivial programs that don't equate to one day's costs of the wars Bush started.

Quoting bjkeefe: Liberals are correct in seeing that Obama is (1) cleaning up the mess that Bush created and (2) investing wisely in the long-term health of the economy. Conservatives are pretending that they care about deficits because they can't think of anything else to attack Obama with. They are also talking about pork because most of their brains are too small to deal with anything except snickering at trivial programs that don't equate to one day's costs of the wars Bush started.

Haha, watch as Bjkeefe excuses corruption.

You're dream is East Germany? I can definitely see you being a top Stasi agent bjkeefe. Haha.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Haha, watch as Bjkeefe excuses corruption.

I do not excuse corruption. That is why I think Bush should be thrown in jail.

Quoting Lyle: You're dream ...?

I am dream. Grad school, huh? Where, Liberty University or Regent?

You just excused Jack Murtha's corrupt defense contract schemes. Unless you're going to do a 180, like Obama did with releasing interrogation photos, and come around to the ethical position.

... and Pelosi and Goss. Since they agreed to the torture regime as well. It wasn't a Republican only policy, there was bi-partisanship on torture.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: You just excused Jack Murtha's corrupt defense contract schemes. Unless you're going to do a 180, like Obama did with releasing interrogation photos, and come around to the ethical position.

Bush's corruption is light years beyond anything anyone else has even been accused of. When we have him locked away, it will be time to deal with the rest.

Haha. What precisely is Bush's "corruption"?

Quoting Lyle: ... and Pelosi and Goss. Since they agreed to the torture regime as well. It wasn't a Republican only policy, there was bi-partisanship on torture.

Porter Goss should be thrown in jail, yes. Pelosi wasn't told anything.

God no. I'm a non-believer.

Yes, she was. If Cheney goes to jail, so does Pelosi.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: I love Milton Friedman, but Singapore and Hong Kong thrive due in large part to their status as sea ports. Being multilingual facilitators across multiple cultures also helps. I do not see where this is applicable to Kansas.

Well my prediction is that big things will happen and we will see how it all sorts out. The deficit spending cant be controlled and it cant be paid for. It will break federalism as we know it. The sooner federalism breaks the better. The states will have a lot of financial cleanup work to do, inheriting their share of the national debt. Arguably the 2010 elections should be a referendum on immediately balancing the budget. And if it fails to pass, states should start withdrawing to force the issue.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Haha. What precisely is Bush's "corruption"?

Everything he did from the time he took office in Texas. And actually, before that. He should be in jail for his stock shenanigans.

Jonah had a good riff against utopians here. I agree. The most dangerous people on the planet are utopians, a group in which I would place Nazis, Soviets, Jacobins, and radical Islamists. If you think you can create a paradise on Earth, then there's no limit to the means you'll use to pursue your utopian ends; murdering innocents is acceptable, because it will place you that much closer to earthly utopia. But you know who else was a utopian? George W. Bush! His second inaugural address revealed him to be a utopian of democracy. He argued that democracy is the only thing that will rescue humanity from evil.

There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom. ...

So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world. ...

We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: The

Ok, time for bed now, Bjkeefe. I think you've been dipping a bit too much into the sauce.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Ok, time for bed now, Bjkeefe.

You're leaving? Good.

Quoting Jyminee: Jonah had a good riff against utopians here.

I agree. The most dangerous people on the planet are utopians, a group in which I would place Nazis, Soviets, Jacobins, and radical Islamists. If you think you can create a paradise on Earth, then there's no limit to the means you'll use to pursue your utopian ends; murdering innocents is acceptable, because it will place you that much closer to earthly utopia.

See: Serenity. A great (conservative) movie.

How can democracy be Utopian? Won't policy go back in forth in the hands of different political parties over time? Are you saying authoritarianism is an acceptable form of governance?

Quoting cognitive madisonian: See: Serenity. A great (conservative) movie.

Funny how you did not acknowledge the bulk of Jyminee's post, which was about your hero, the criminal George W. Bush. Not to mention the flip-flopping of your other hero, Jonah Goldberg.

First, George Bush is not my hero. He's a good man who had an incredibly difficult job and performed admirably, if not outstandingly. Second, the post warranted mentioning of Serenity and the illustration of the type of tutelary despotism that some elements on the left seek to achieve. I'm beginning to question whether this is the real bjkeefe. Perhaps his 12 year old son logged on to daddy's account and is parroting what he's told each day. "good morning dad."
"glorious morning let's burn pictures of the hated george bush today, my child."

Quoting Lyle: Yes, she was. If Cheney goes to jail, so does Pelosi.

No, she wasn't. Conservatives are now past the point where they can even pretend that they are not guilty, so they're looking to take down others with them. Or muddy the waters. This is just a variation on the Clenis rebuttal.

You are sadly deluded and you illustrate the dangers of the shift toward opinion-based news sources.

I disagree. There are plenty of people arguing she has lied about not knowing. Maybe it would be hard to prove, but she'd be brought in to it and destroyed politically at the very least.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: First, George Bush is not my hero.

The only thing worse than the fact that George Bush was your hero is that you now won't stand up for him. Conservative "principles," once again.

He's a good man who had an incredibly difficult job and performed admirably, if not outstandingly.

Okay, so you're back to hero worship.

Second, the post warranted mentioning of Serenity ...

If by "warranted" you mean "seemed like a way to derail the discussion of George Bush being a utopian," I agree.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: You are sadly deluded and you illustrate the dangers of the shift toward opinion-based news sources.

I am glad you recognize these dangers. Now, will you be able to see them in yourself and your fellow conservatives? After all, pretty much none of you listen to anything but Fox and Rush these days, amirite?

Quoting bjkeefe: The only thing worse than the fact that George Bush was your hero is that you now won't stand up for him. Conservative "principles," once again.

Not really. I'll defend him against any unfair charges, such as the nonsense you're spreading tonight. Wingnuts such as you can not differentiate this, though.

If by "warranted" you mean "seemed like a way to derail the discussion of George Bush being a utopian," I agree.

There is an obvious difference between an optimist and a utopian. Bush is an optimist.

Quoting bjkeefe: I am glad you recognize these dangers. Now, will you be able to see them in yourself and your fellow conservatives? After all, pretty much none of you listen to anything but Fox and Rush these days, amirite?

FYI I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, I sometimes watch Fox News, and I watch the PBS News Hour most nights.

Quoting Lyle: I disagree. There are plenty of people arguing she has lied about no knowing.

Any of them not work for the right-wing media?

Maybe it would be hard to prove, ...

I smell backpedaling already. Good!

... but she'd be brought in to it and destroyed politically at the very least.

I doubt it. You people on the far right haven't been right about anything else this decade. You keep predicting doom for top Democrats, and you keep getting your butt kicked by them.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: FYI I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, ...

Good for you. Maybe there's some hope for you yet. Now what about all the rest of your fellow conservatives?

I sometimes watch Fox News, ...

So much for hope.

Here's that right wing blowhard Jon Stewart:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...e=waffle-house

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Not really. I'll defend him against any unfair charges, ...

There are no unfair charges against Bush. He should already be in jail.

There is an obvious difference between an optimist and a utopian. Bush is an optimist.

Bush was a utopian when he was at the height of his powers as president. Re-read Jyminee's post, for a start. Stop watching Fox News for the next step.

Quoting bjkeefe: There are no unfair charges against Bush. He should already be in jail.

Ah, the wingnuttery rears its head again.

Yeah, a number of liberals think Pelosi is lying. She's a politician for crying out loud. MoveOn.org is already sharpening the knives they plan to stick in Obama on the torture issue. The St. Petersburg Times or some such has a famous "lie-o-meter" and it's come out against Pelosi. Torture is what the gay guy in the bathroom was to Senator Craig, i.e., no more respect, no more power... at the very least. And you know what's worse, torturing a Muslim guy or getting fellatio in an airport bathroom? If you get what you want though, she's going up the river with Cheney and Yoo.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Here's that right wing blowhard Jon Stewart:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...e=waffle-house

Ah, good to see you're brave enough to watch Jon Stewart. But you don't really, do you? Some wingnut blogger passed along the link, and now you're chortling. Fine. You want to make a big deal about what Pelosi was told? It only makes the case stronger for sending Bush and Cheney and all the rest of their cronies to jail.

I see Joanh's war on straw continues in full force. He'll show those hippies yet!

The left-wing blogosphere was needlessly cruel to Craig, just as they were with Sarah Palin's children. When a certain Democrat official's daughter was caught on camera doing cocaine, no mainstream conservative blog touched it.

In other words, you were wrong and the Speaker of the House goes right along with them for eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil deeds.

Considering your media consumption, you haven't any room to comment.

Quoting Lyle: If you get what you want though, she's going up the river with Cheney and Yoo.

Like I said to your fellow wingnut, cog.mad.:

Fine. You want to make a big deal about what Pelosi was told? It only makes the case stronger for sending Bush and Cheney and all the rest of their cronies to jail.

I am delighted to hear you wingnuts dropping all pretense that the Bush Administration did not torture, in your eagerness to get at a Democrat. Maybe some justice will be served after all.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Considering your media consumption, you haven't any room to comment.

You don't know what media I consume.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: In other words, you were wrong and the Speaker of the House goes right along with them for eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil deeds.

Nope. I was right -- the Bush Administration instituted a policy of torture. That's the important point. I could care less if Pelosi gets a slap on the wrist as part of the real criminals going to jail. Glad to hear you admitting torture is evil, though.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Ah, the wingnuttery rears its head again.

Real substantive answer, cog.mad. I notice you don't deny the correctness of what I said, though.

Quoting Jyminee: Jonah had a good riff against utopians here.

I agree. The most dangerous people on the planet are utopians, a group in which I would place Nazis, Soviets, Jacobins, and radical Islamists. If you think you can create a paradise on Earth, then there's no limit to the means you'll use to pursue your utopian ends; murdering innocents is acceptable, because it will place you that much closer to earthly utopia.

But you know who else was a utopian? George W. Bush! His second inaugural address revealed him to be a utopian of democracy. He argued that democracy is the only thing that will rescue humanity from evil.

Many conservatives have since turned on Bush and his second inaugural (on Bloggingheads recently Ross Douthat called it something like "a pretty appalling document from a conservative perspective"). What did Jonah have to say after Bush's speech? Here's his column.

Maybe next time he's on, Jonah can address how and why Bush and the conservative movement forgot the "fundamental insight of conservatism."

Nice catch. It doesn't really matter though. I doubt Jonah Goldberg cares if he's telling the truth or not.

Quoting Lyle: God no. I'm a non-believer.

Phoenix Online, then?

Quoting bjkeefe: Real substantive answer, cog.mad.

Coming from you, that means absolutely nothing. Whoever recognizes that quote wins.

You claimed Pelosi knew nothing. You were wrong. Now be a big boy and admit you were wrong.

Especially Palin. People were and continue to be way out of line with Palin. Politics is a rough game though and not everyone gets a fair hearing when power is at stake. Senator Craig I'm less sympathetic about.

Craig dug his own grave, unlike Palin's children who happened merely to have been the children of someone the nutroots took aim at, but I still have sympathy for him because he was not a partisan flamethrower (pun not intended), and was a good senator with some obvious personal problems.

Yeah, true enough, but a politician is a politician and if you screw up you will be flamed.

Actually I do know, from all that you've linked to and/or discussed on here. You're a prime example of the new media partisan.

I was worried that the rise of cog.mad and DS acquiring nuclear crazy would destabilize the forums, but it looks like the realists were right and the balance of power naturally re-asserted itself as bjkeefe more heavily mobilized. If I'm reading the situation correctly now would be the perfect time for claymisher to attack JonIrenicus and annex moderate libertarianism

Quoting cognitive madisonian: The left-wing blogosphere was needlessly cruel to Craig, ...

Nice try at rewriting history, but it won't wash. While the leftosphere enjoyed making jokes at the hypocrite's expense, the ones with the real knives out were his fellow Republicans. Many in the leftosphere, in fact, were using this to illustrate the inanity of the social conservative position on homosexuality.

...just as they were with Sarah Palin's children.

Hard to believe even Rich Lowry or Greta Van Susteren would try to say something this stupid. The truth is, Bible Spice used her kids as campaign props, and lefties pretty much limited themselves to pointing out the stupidity of abstinence-only programs and asking what the reaction would have been if Obama had a pregnant unmarried teen-aged daughter. Almost all the negative attention that has been brought on them has been Hatfield-McCoy type squabbling between Palin and the Johnstons or gossip columns with no political leaning. (Yeah, yeah, I know, if it's not Fox, it's "the liberal media." Save it.)

When a certain Democrat official's daughter was caught on camera doing cocaine, no mainstream conservative blog touched it.

Either you're lying again (I know, what are the odds?) or you've

I was not talking about Al Gore and your lack of class is not entertaining.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Actually I do know, from all that you've linked to and/or discussed on here. You're a prime example of the new media partisan.

You know a subset of what I consume. You don't know what else I read that I don't pass along in this forum.

Right you secretly are a voracious consumer of responsible journalism. Which is why you didn't know that Nancy P knew about the interrogation methods.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Craig dug his own grave, unlike Palin's children who happened merely to have been the children of someone the nutroots took aim at, but I still have sympathy for him because he was not a partisan flamethrower (pun not intended), and was a good senator with some obvious personal problems.

Ah bullshit. Craig was among the most sanctimonious of pricks when the GOP was going after Bill Clinton. And don't keep trying to say that the left "took aim" at Palin's children. You've made that empty assertion, I've rebutted it. Time for you to back it up with some evidence. And no, not just some random post from some Kossack no one's ever heard of.

I stopped reading your post when you stooped to silly name calling.

Quoting pampl: I was worried that the rise of cog.mad and DS acquiring nuclear crazy would destabilize the forums, but it looks like the realists were right and the balance of power naturally re-asserted itself as bjkeefe more heavily mobilized. If I'm reading the situation correctly now would be the perfect time for claymisher to attack JonIrenicus and annex moderate libertarianism

Haha! I got there first! It's all mine! *cough* *cough* Alright ... school vouchers are sensible policy because choice makes parents feel better about public schools (whether or not the schools are actually are better). To maintain equity in the system schools that accept the vouchers shouldn't charge more in tuition and fees than the value of the voucher. And to be eligible schools must be secular. Basically, every school a charter.

It's mine now! See! MINE!

Quoting Lyle: Especially Palin. People were and continue to be way out of line with Palin.

How, exactly? She has got you snowed with her non-stop complaining. The truth is, she was woefully unprepared for a couple of softball interviews and made a fool of herself in them. She then acted like a bimbo on camera (how many winks was it?) during the VP debate while ducking questions and parroting irrelevant talking points. She was a lying and vicious speaker at campaign events, and at the end, she got tried to hog the spotlight when she realized she was more popular with the wingnut base than McCain was. So, really, the nastiest things that were said about her were by those in the McCain camp. She had better get used to criticism if she's ever planning on running for national office again, and so had you. You both might start by reviewing what was thrown at Barack Obama, 24/7 by the right-wing noise machine. You might also review some of many painfully obvious moments where it was clear she had not the slightest idea what she was talking about. It's hilarious to me that

Quoting cognitive madisonian: I was not talking about Al Gore and your lack of class is not entertaining.

Sucks when the facts kick your ass, doesn't it?

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Right you secretly are a voracious consumer of responsible journalism. Which is why you didn't know that Nancy P knew about the interrogation methods.

I haven't followed that story particularly closely because it's been all he said/she said, this report leaked, that anonymous source said the report wasn't correct, blah blah blah. If there's anything there, it'll come out, eventually. Face it. It's not that big a story, especially compared to all the stuff that's (finally) coming at a steady stream about the Bushies. You would like to pretend it's a big story, because you're out of options as far as defending your (former?) hero goes. But just because the wingnutosphere is howling about it and Fox is talking about it around the clock doesn't mean it amounts to all that much. Nice try, though.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: You claimed Pelosi knew nothing. You were wrong. Now be a big boy and admit you were wrong.

Calm yourself. I already addressed this. And if you haven't figured out I was just imitating you conservatards earlier with all of the over the top stuff I was saying, you're even more of a humorless dimwit than I thought. And that, my little wingnut, is saying something.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: I stopped reading your post when you stooped to silly name calling.

Oh for crissakes. This is really weak sauce, cog.mad. Especially since you haven't been shy about calling names yourself. Welp, looks like Perlstein's Law applies, once again. Guess I'll leave you to your tears. I should have known better than to toy with someone who can't take what he dishes out. Have a good night, once your sniffles stop.

yes it's alllllllllllllllllllllllll coming out, just keep telling yourself that. If you repeat it enough times it must be true. Well at least to wingnuts such as yourself.

I don't call names, I only recognize what you are: an embittered wingnut, long on venom and short on information. Probably a failed educator handling correspondence courses.

Quoting pampl: [...]

Awesome.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: I don't call names, I only recognize what you are: an embittered wingnut, long on venom and short on information. Probably a failed educator handling correspondence courses.

You're really not very good at this game, are you? The point would be to craft insults that have a chance to actually carry a sting. That requires at least a minimal understanding of whom you're engaging and a modicum of wit. One of the advantages to playing in a text medium is you don't really need even to be particularly quick. Alas, even the removal of that particular constraint seems not to have helped much here.

mmm hmmmm

Haha... nope, I'm an American not an East German. Re-education and punishment is for the puritanical progressive, not I. Karl Rove just did his job, by the way. He's just the Republican version of Carville or Begala. They'd have to go up the river or into the oven as well. Hehe.

Gotta say, that's quite the intro.

Jonah,
Might a kid who has fallen in a well need some kind of healthcare once he is rescued?

Quoting cognitive madisonian: Just search out the number of Che stickers, buttons, and shirts on any university.

Cog, if you want some pot, just ask. This weird, nonsensical code you talk in is hard to follow.

You are conflating the lefts sympathy with people (even if they live under a dictator) with sympathy for dictators. if anyone supports dictators - its been the right all through the cold war.

Quoting claymisher: Nice catch. It doesn't really matter though. I doubt Jonah Goldberg cares if he's telling the truth or not.

Another prime example from the same pot:
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/ly...stabullsht.php

Enh... but the left was more sympathetic to the Soviet Union and communist/socialist countries in general (who were all authoritarian, if not totalitarian government or political entities).

Quoting graz: Another prime example from the same pot:
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/ly...stabullsht.php

all hail Kleiman!!

Quoting graz: Another prime example from the same pot:
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/ly...stabullsht.php

Glenn Reynolds is a gutless scumbag. He should be disbarred and fired from his cushy government job.

Quoting bjkeefe: Calm yourself. I already addressed this.

And if you haven't figured out I was just imitating you conservatards earlier with all of the over the top stuff I was saying, you're even more of a humorless dimwit than I thought. And that, my little wingnut, is saying something.

Looks like Bjkeefe is still incapable of admitting when he is wrong.

BTW, where is the article of Jena 6 that corrects all the errors in coverage and provides the last word?
Since you dismissed the Christian Science monitor article as hearsay.
And speaking of people who get stuck on something and just can't let it go ... The only question is: did you bookmark that comment of mine or search for it?

Quoting bjkeefe: Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity, and Limbaugh should be banished from the airwaves immediately. They should be given one chance to recant everything they have ever said. Otherwise, they should be sent to prison in another country where they should spend the rest of their short-ass lives in agonizing pain.

So you want to live in Cuba or Venezuela?
Come on dude, what happened to free speech?

Quoting graz: Another prime example from the same pot:
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/ly...stabullsht.php

"likes being bullshat" made me laugh out loud.

Quoting maximus444: So you want to live in Cuba or Venezuela?
Come on dude, what happened to free speech?

bjkeefe will call it Hate Speech and not entitled to First Amendment protections.

Otherwise, they should be sent to prison in another country where they should spend the rest of their short-ass lives in agonizing pain.

So much for the Progressive talking point about not supporting torture.

Quoting PaulL:

Quoting maximus444: So you want to live in Cuba or Venezuela?
Come on dude, what happened to free speech?

bjkeefe will call it Hate Speech and not entitled to First Amendment protections.

So much for the Progressive talking point about not supporting torture.

Richard, what say you?

I sense intellectual deterioration of the once-vital conservative movement in the United States.

"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday acknowledged that she had learned in 2003 that the C.I.A. had subjected suspects to waterboarding, but she asserted that the agency had misled Congress about its techniques." - NYTimes "On Monday the White House raised its estimate of the budget deficit for the current fiscal year from $1.75 trillion to $1.84 trillion. The $89 billion correction was more than five times the cuts Obama had proposed four days before." - Reason Magazine The meltdown continues........ Change you can believe in

Quoting harkin: "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday acknowledged that she had learned in 2003 that the C.I.A. had subjected suspects to waterboarding, but she asserted that the agency had misled Congress about its techniques." - NYTimes

"On Monday the White House raised its estimate of the budget deficit for the current fiscal year from $1.75 trillion to $1.84 trillion. The $89 billion correction was more than five times the cuts Obama had proposed four days before." - Reason Magazine

The meltdown continues........

Change you can believe in

That all you got? Keep whinging about the sideshow. The more ridiculous you look, the better it is for the Democrats.

What are Jonah's friends going to think when they learn that he was caught on tape agreeing with Dewey on the proper relationship between individuals and social institutions!

Quoting Tyrrell McAllister: What are Jonah's friends going to think when they learn that he was caught on tape agreeing with Dewey on the proper relationship between individuals and social institutions!

What is it with Jonah Goldberg's war on Dewey? Does he feel secure in going after Dewey since nobody (except me apparently) actually reads him? The only problem with Dewey is that he's boring because his positions are so unrelenting moderate and sensible.