Quoting bjkeefe: I'm as much of a cultural illiterate as anyone, but man: Please save us from earnest young technocrats.

Probably some searching for data to support my conjecture going on here, but so far, listening to the next half-hour, I am fairly amazed at how well my opening plea continues to apply. Sounds like Conor C. did not spend enough of his young summers reading comic books or the Hardy Boys or going surfing or playing the guitar or just plain hanging out. I almost fell out of my chair when he asked Conor F. if CF would want to "make policy" based on what he'd learned on his summer vacations. First: How much of a dork do you have to be to ask that question? Second: The answer should have been an emphatic yes -- heard of "life experience" and -- to use a word no one's probably heard enough of -- "empathy," CC? Third: Son, there is more to life than being a wonk. Even for people who like being wonks and who get paid to be wonks. Trust me on this. You'll even be a better wonk for it, if you accept it. Two more points on the do-away-with-summer-vacation

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5639 Here's a good interview where I believe DFW touches on the "endnotes" thing a bit.

Sounds like the Apocalypse, in fact, already has happened. Hell on Earth, at the very least. Now I know why one of my friends in LA told me she had escaped from "behind the Orange Curtain." ========== [Added] Too bad that Conor and Conor opened by discussing DFW and ended by discussing rightwing talk radio, and failed to connect those two dots. ========== [Added2] And speaking of the beginning of this diavlog, check out the new new website! (via, of course, and also, cf.)

Sanford went AWOL for a week to go play whoopee with his Argentine mistress. That's the problem. Its not the kind of behavior you want in a President or Governor. Regarding Palin and Sullivan, RS McCain has an interesting takedown of him and the other Trig-Truthers.

Aren't we due a Kaus appearance this week?

Quoting rcocean: Sanford went AWOL for a week to go play whoopee with his Argentine mistress. That's the problem. Its not the kind of behavior you want in a President or Governor.

Agreed.

Quoting rcocean: Regarding Palin and Sullivan, RS McCain has an interesting takedown of him and the other Trig-Truthers.

Hard to believe (1) anyone reads this guy for any reason other than the search for unintentional hilarity, and (2) that he thinks he has any ground whatsoever to stand on when it comes to matters of taste and decorum. Let's look at his opening paragraph:

Says Professor William Jacobson regarding Wonkette's despicable treatment of Sarah Palin's year-old son, Trig. And I would amend the professor's sentiments only to improve them by saying, "It takes gay men to stoop this low."

So far, he has: (1) Linked to a certifiable lunatic of a wingnut who once did, what, nineteen updates* on Barack Obama's choice of hamburger condiments? (2) Completely mischaracterized what Wonkette did. Posting a Photoshopped picture of Palin holding her favorite campaign prop has nothing to do with Trig -- it is mocking Palin herself, her endless thirst for attention, and both her fauxtrage and her tin ear concerning that Alaska blogger's

This is a great example of why education needs to be a local issue. If Conner thinks getting rid of summer vacation is a good idea, he should convince his local district to do so. And good luck with that! As BJK states, many Teachers put up with relatively low pay because they get summer vacation. The idea of these two nerds making education policy for the whole country makes me shudder. And the equality argument is ridiculous. Whatever advantage some nerd gets by going to "summer math camp" is insignificant compared to advantages of having well to do, well-educated parents or being able to go to a rich prep school.

Get your Bard on here: http://www.sfshakes.org/camp/

Sullivan is the kind of person that CREATES homophobia. Its kinda hard to sympathize with a professional Gay man who viciously attacks anyone who disagrees with his current (always changing) positions. BTW, is he still persona non grata with the left? I remember he became a little hysterical after 9-11.

Quoting rcocean: Sullivan is the kind of person that CREATES homophobia.

No. Stop. That's exactly the wrong attitude to have. Call him an asshole, a moron, whatever you like, but his opinions, his blogging obsessions, and whatever other shortcomings you might identify have nothing to do with his sexual orientation. Think about it in these terms. Suppose I say to you: Michael Steele is the kind of person that MAKES you hate black people. --or-- Sarah Palin is the kind of person that MAKES you say women should stay in the kitchen. See what I'm saying?

Quoting rcocean: BTW, is he still persona non grata with the left? I remember he became a little hysterical after 9-11.

Hard as it is for you to believe this, rc, The Left does not have a single point of view on anything. As to Sully's "status," have a look at this thread, for example, to see the disparity in views. I happen to like him in a lot of ways; nikkibong, for example, can't stand him. As far as his post-9/11 mindset and subsequent change of mind go, I have spoken numerous times on this forum about that. I accepted his apology, if that doesn't sound too highfalutin. Put another way, I see him as having made a bad call/picked the wrong

Quoting bjkeefe: Please save us from earnest young technocrats.

Agreed. How sad.

Conor F, I've studied Rush Limbaugh for years and have recently paid intermittent attention to Mark Levine. So far, I've find their messages almost identical. On today's Rush show he pounded on the idea that Obama wants to destroy our country....in some sort of radical nihilist agenda. Very amusingly Rush asked his audience to notice how many times we hear the phrase "YOU DESERVE"-something or other in an increasing number of advertising pitches.....EVER SINCE OBAMA CAME TO POWER. "We've become a country where everyone deserves....but nobody earns anything NOW!" Ahhh, Justice! Rush's next commercial break was sponsored by Tempurpedic, reminding us that "YOU DESERVE a good night's sleep."

Interesting if you're interested in an even more indulgent rehashing of the very well-worn argument that liberals hate Sarah Palin because she's conservative, beautiful, and happy at the same time, now with more homophobia. Reading that post makes me think that the reason RS McCain and other propagators of this silly argument like Palin is because she's an attractive, successful, socially conservative woman with a child with Down's syndrome, and that makes him cackle deep inside and think "Hahahaha! This woman symbolizes the downfall of feminism!" But, since that's a silly reason to support a political candidate, they project their feelings onto liberals, who must hate Palin because the existence of an attractive, successful, socially conservative woman with a child with Down's syndrome supposedly destroys their carefully constructed feminist ideology. This is what Jim Geraghty and Hugh Hewitt basically say. Honestly, I applaud women (or anyone, really) who have found success and fulfillment in whatever ideology and lifestyle they want, whether it's liberal or conservative, rural or urban, whatever. The existence of conservative, pro-life women doesn't explode my feminism whatsoever, because a very important part of it is the recognition that, oh my god, women have opinions and make

Fiction isn't taken quite as seriously in places where you feel you can say what you want. In liberal democracies, this is especially true of young people who can, as a friend put it, experience life rather than read about it.

I was about to post to clear up something to the Conors, but I just heard CONOR FRIEDERSDORF ( yeah, I copied it, started to type it out and was like woah ) give the correct explanation. Shtick. Mark Levin is 80% Shtick. Michael Savage = Shtick.
They are not for real, not to the extent that they go off the rails on their show.
Same with a local guy named Kevin James here in LA, when he talks about current events not related specifically to a conservative vs liberal issue, he sounds a thousand times more lucid than when he is railing against illegal immigrants, or Antonia Villarigosa or etc. Shtick.
All I will say is that while the talk landscape as a whole is pretty rough on reasoned arguments, there are decent hosts. (Enter cheer leading for Michael Medved) The Michael Medved show!, listen to that and compare it to Levin or Hannity or Rush or etc.

This has to be the most unfair political argument I've ever heard.

Quoting themightypuck: Fiction isn't taken quite as seriously in places where you feel you can say what you want. In liberal democracies, this is especially true of young people who can, as a friend put it, experience life rather than read about it.

An interesting thought, which I'd imagine applies for some young people. Certainly I have gone through periods in my life where I only read non-fiction. And it it true that I have often heard the proposition that in repressive societies, one of the wedges used in the struggle for personal freedoms is fiction; e.g., absurdist literature in the old USSR. I have a feeling, however, that the saying appeals more for the way it sounds than anything else. It seems to me just as likely that in non-liberal non-democracies, it is just as hard to get unfettered access to non-fiction. And if you can say anything this general about the American education scene and educated society, it seems to me that we have an imbalance between the liberal arts and other fields. For example, one frequently hears cries about the declining number of American students pursuing advanced degrees in science and engineering, and it

Quoting JonIrenicus: ... 80% Shtick. ...

I would be more comforted by this if I believed the core audience for Limbaugh, Levin, Hannity, etc., held the same view. Unfortunately, they do not. They tend to view these guys as The Truth and view "the mainstream media," pardon me, "the drive-by media," pardon me, "the state-run media" as little more than propaganda for whatever forces they're currently most paranoid about (Obama=Hitler, Obama=Chamberlain, the looming confiscation of guns, the homosexual agenda, the PC police, the UN and the coming world government, the return of the Fairness Doctrine, etc.). Have you ever talked politics or even current events with such a person? It can be an experience that would raise the eyebrows of Lewis Carroll. Actually -- and IIRC, one of the Conors touched on this -- there is something that gives me a small amount of comfort in this area. The competition between the purveyors of hate radio, it seems to me, tends to push them in the direction of trying to out-outrage the others (both in the sense of how loudly they complain about trivialities and how far they're willing to distort reality). It seems, when I'm having a good day, that the result is a more committed fan base but with

Quoting bjkeefe: Probably some searching for data to support my conjecture going on here, but so far, listening to the next half-hour, I am fairly amazed at how well my opening plea continues to apply.

Oh, I loved them. I probably have an abnormally high tolerance for the young wonk types, though. Plus, I'm doing the IJ thing, so was happy that was touched on (though I wanted to argue with them during that bit too). The summer vacation did go on a bit too long.

Quoting bjkeefe: Sounds like Conor C. did not spend enough of his young summers reading comic books or the Hardy Boys or going surfing or playing the guitar or just plain hanging out. I almost fell out of my chair when he asked Conor F. if CF would want to "make policy" based on what he'd learned on his summer vacations.

I'll stand up for Conor C. a bit -- he wasn't saying no vacations, but questioning the length of time that we currently have, given the bad effects. I really didn't see why the considerations Conor F. mentioned couldn't all have been accomodated to a shorter vacation (say, one month and then some weeks off at other times), which is

Quoting stephanie: [...]

Points taken. I was, of course, only arguing one side. In reality, I don't think there was nothing to what Conor C. was trying to get at.

Quoting rcocean: This is a great example of why education needs to be a local issue. If Conner thinks getting rid of summer vacation is a good idea, he should convince his local district to do so. And good luck with that! As BJK states, many Teachers put up with relatively low pay because they get summer vacation.

Yes, one of the problems is that teachers would have to be paid for 12 months, not 9. And I'm inclined to agree on the local issue point -- in theory, this is how it should work, with some districts trying it, and if it turns out to be a good reform, others will pick it up. If not, the ones who tried it drop it. One reason why having multiple levels of government can be a good thing. Of course, a problem is that the districts most likely to benefit from something like this are probably those with the worst money problems. But at this point I'm just speculating.

Quoting rcocean: And the equality argument is ridiculous. Whatever advantage some nerd gets by going to "summer math camp" is insignificant compared to advantages of having well to do, well-educated parents or

Quoting kezboard: Reading that post makes me think that the reason RS McCain and other propagators of this silly argument like Palin is because she's an attractive, successful, socially conservative woman with a child with Down's syndrome, and that makes him cackle deep inside and think "Hahahaha! This woman symbolizes the downfall of feminism!" But, since that's a silly reason to support a political candidate, they project their feelings onto liberals, who must hate Palin because the existence of an attractive, successful, socially conservative woman with a child with Down's syndrome supposedly destroys their carefully constructed feminist ideology.

Good analysis. I think you've hit on the right explanation.

Quoting stephanie: Good analysis. I think you've hit on the right explanation.

Phil Nugent builds on this. If you haven't got time for the whole post, here's the conclusion:

If Republicans were deprived of their sense that "the left" despises this silly person, they might realize that they can't think of another reason why they care about her.

[Added] The post of Steve's that Phil refers to in his opening is here, if you're not a regular reader of NoMoMrNB.

Thanks, I'll look at those. In not really about the diavlog news, Palin is resigning? Maybe she'll have time now to come on bloggingheads and debate Andrew Sullivan.

Quoting stephanie: Thanks, I'll look at those.

In not really about the diavlog news, Palin is resigning? Maybe she'll have time now to come on bloggingheads and debate Andrew Sullivan.

I heard that rumor (well, actually the rumor that she would be announcing her decision not to seek reelection, not resigning). Have you seen any actual news? [Added] Oops. Always Google first. (I had, half an hour ago, but I should have done so again.) First returned item in the news. Second one says she didn't take any questions.

Time for a new thread.

Quoting bjkeefe: No. Stop. That's exactly the wrong attitude to have. Call him an asshole, a moron, whatever you like, but his opinions, his blogging obsessions, and whatever other shortcomings you might identify have nothing to do with his sexual orientation.

One of the few times I agree with you but only partly, calling him a moron or an a**hole is (minus the generalization) just as meaningless. Mr RawMuscleGlutes may be a hypocrite whose behavior conjurs up some horrifying mental images but using that behavior to make a judgement on the lifestyle of others who share his orientation is wrong. It's the same as using Mark Sanford to pass judgement on conservative Christians. Or in using the Duke Rape Case to argue against same sex couple adoption. Let statistics on disease and mortality address generalizations on lifestyle.

Quoting harkin: One of the few times I agree with you but only partly, calling him a moron or an a**hole is (minus the generalization) just as meaningless.

Fair enough. I was just trying to think of some neutral examples of what you might say about someone with whom you violently disagree about political matters and the like.

ha! i love blogging heads, and lookee who i found here. conor friedersdorf, thank god you're advocating for the 'summer vacation.' whew. i would have hated never speaking to you again! nice to 'see' you, smarty pants