Nailed it.

While I pretty much agree with your analysis I don't see the Jews willingly moving to the one state solution as it will require the displacement of the Jewishness of the current state of Israel. I don't believe that that is sell able to the majority of the current generations of Israelis.

Quoting piscivorous: While I pretty much agree with your analysis I don't see the Jews willingly moving to the one state solution as it will require the displacement of the Jewishness of the current state of Israel. I don't believe that that is sell able to the majority of the current generations of Israelis.

I see it that way also. So the present situation will continue for another 10-20 years. Everyone will just live with it. Some low level of violence will continue, but Iran will not "attack".

I don't see the Jews willingly moving to the one state solution...

I'm a Jew. I moved to it willingly. I supported the two-state solution for decades. I also spent 40 years supporting withdrawal from the Territories and removal of the Settlements. Forty years was enough even for Moses. Now I say, Keep the Settlements. Stay where you are. Just make the whole region from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River a single nation. Like Switzerland.

Quoting Wonderment: I'm a Jew. I moved to it willingly.

I supported the two-state solution for decades. I also spent 40 years supporting withdrawal from the Territories and removal of the Settlements.

Forty years was enough even for Moses.

Now I say, Keep the Settlements. Stay where you are. Just make the whole region from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River a single nation. Like Switzerland.

The smiley, I take it, means you are being tongue-in-cheek? It is one thing to create a federation of mild-mannered German-speaking, French-speaking, and Italian-speaking populations of largely indifferent Catholics and Protestants; it is another thing to federate believers of three different religions (I assume there are some Christian Palestinians) in a state that currently espouses an ideology---zionism---that has its roots in the most exclusionary "volkish" nationalism of the 19th century.

Quoting Wonderment: Start repeating the usual clichés and get busy envisioning a peaceful path to the one-state solution. It's a hard job and it will require people of your expertise, experience and goodwill.

Stop repeating the cliches about winning in Iraq and Afghanistan and get busy envisioning a peaceful path to a one state solution for the Taleban, al Qaida, the Baath party, and the US.

Quoting kidneystones: Israel, however, is once again floating the idea of striking Iran soon.

Christ man, how long will you persist in linking to these ZMOG SCARY HERE IT COMES ANY SECOND NOW SRSLY speculations? Each of the many times you've trotted out one of these, it has ended up not coming to pass. Eventually you might want to wonder if there is a reason for this 100% fail rate. At some point will you be releasing the Michelle Obama "Whitey" video as well?

Quoting Stapler Malone:
At some point will you be releasing the Michelle Obama "Whitey" video as well?

lolz.

Just wanted to say that this was Daniel Levy's best diavlog. He is clearly better matched with someone whom he shares most views with so he keeps a level head. His views were much better articulated as a result.

Quoting Stapler Malone: Christ man, how long will you persist in linking to these ZMOG SCARY HERE IT COMES ANY SECOND NOW SRSLY speculations? Each of the many times you've trotted out one of these, it has ended up not coming to pass. Eventually you might want to wonder if there is a reason for this 100% fail rate.

At some point will you be releasing the Michelle Obama "Whitey" video as well?

See, kid? It's not just me who sees you this way.

The smiley, I take it, means you are being tongue-in-cheek? It is one thing to create a federation of mild-mannered German-speaking, French-speaking, and Italian-speaking populations of largely indifferent Catholics and Protestants; it is another thing to federate believers of three different religions (I assume there are some Christian Palestinians) in a state that currently espouses an ideology---zionism---that has its roots in the most exclusionary "volkish" nationalism of the 19th century.

The smiley is in recognition of the difficulties of creating a Switzerland, Spain or Canada overnight. I'm dead serious, however, about giving up on the two-state "solution" and advocating a single Democratic state.

Quoting Wonderment: I'm dead serious, however, about giving up on the two-state "solution" and advocating a single Democratic state.

I too am serious about the US forming a single Democratic state with the Taliban, and the Baath Party. I just don't get why people do not take us seriously.

Quoting gwlaw99: I too am serious about the US forming a single Democratic state with the Taliban, and the Baath Party. I just don't get why people do not take us seriously.

So in this analogy, who's the Baath Party? Is it Israel?

If I have to spell it out. Fatah is the Baath Party and the Taliban is Hamas in my analogy. If you think Israel is the Baath party, you are entitled to your opinion, but why would you ever want to create a single state with it? Seems we both agree a single state is a moronic idea.

Quoting kidneystones: Game-changing may have to take a backseat to digging deeper foxholes. The US is fast running out of economic and political capital. SoS Clinton's snap reaction to a question suggests that things are a long way from well and good aboard the good ship Hope and Change.　Jaw-Jaw is always better than blasting away at one's opponent.

Israel, however, is once again floating the idea of striking Iran soon.

I wonder if the administration has a plan for that eventuality?　Blame Bush? Blame Clinton? Blame Rush? Blame both Clintons?

I'll go with all of the above.

You are eclectic in your blame, but I agree that all is not well on the good ship Lollypop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwHNP00cp-g

Here is the most accurate assessment of the Israeli/Palestinian/U.S. situation I've read in years. Just one short paragraph, from the end of the "Wagg the Bogg" gossip column, written by your Intern Riley:

REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R-FLA) recently visited an Israeli police station in Sderot, where she perused a collection of pebbles, stones and Qassam rockets that Palestinians have thrown at the small town over the years. Ros-Lehtinen then took a tour of the local ISRAELI WHITE PHOSPHOROUS FACTORY. “So it goes.”

She should have asked for the tour of the world's largest rogue nuclear arms program ... which is currently a dilemma for Obama's goal of nuclear disarmament and abolition.

Quoting bjkeefe: Here is the most accurate assessment of the Israeli/Palestinian/U.S. situation I've read in years. Just one short paragraph, from the end of the "Wagg the Bogg" gossip column, written by your Intern Riley:

Yes, it does sum it up quite nicely. 6,300 rockets launched by Palestinians into Sderot for the sole purpose of killing civilians vs white phosphorpus used for smoke cover for the sole purpose of stopping those rockets being fired.

Quoting gwlaw99: Yes, it does sum it up quite nicely.

6,300 rockets launched by Palestinians into Sderot for the sole purpose of killing civilians vs white phosphorpus used for illumination for the sole purpose of stopping those rockets being fired.

Snooze. We've all that stuff before. It's not news to anyone here. Give it up.

Quoting claymisher: Snooze.

We've all that stuff before. It's not news to anyone here. Give it up.

Correct, it is no longer news. It is fact.

Quoting gwlaw99: Correct, it is no longer news. It is fact.

You should probably type that in all caps, and then underline it and bold it, to boost its credibility.

Quoting bjkeefe: You should probably type that in all caps, and then underline it and bold it, to boost its credibility.

So what part of the 6,300 rockets is not fact? What part of the IDF would not have gone into Gaza, but for those rockets is not fact? You sarcasm just makes you look desperate for a real argument.

The point is that everybody is already aware of the basic unhappy facts in the I/P situation, and nobody really thinks this fact or that fact is going to give one side or another a free pass to do whatever it wants. The moral high ground stopped being relevant a long time ago. Sooner or later Palestinians are going to be full-fledged citizens of one country or another. I don't care if it's a binational Israel or if it's Palestine. Just get on with it already.

Quoting claymisher: The point is that everybody is already aware of the basic unhappy facts in the I/P situation, and nobody really thinks this fact or that fact is going to give one side or another a free pass to do whatever it wants. The moral high ground stopped being relevant a long time ago. Sooner or later Palestinians are going to be full-fledged citizens of one country or another. I don't care if it's a binational Israel or if it's Palestine. Just get on with it already.

Well I did not start the issue. I merely responded to the post saying this

REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R-FLA) recently visited an Israeli police station in Sderot, where she perused a collection of pebbles, stones and Qassam rockets that Palestinians have thrown at the small town over the years. Ros-Lehtinen then took a tour of the local ISRAELI WHITE PHOSPHOROUS FACTORY. “So it goes.” .

Cause/response. It's a common theme that people seem to have trouble understanding.

You should probably type that in all caps, and then underline it and bold it, to boost its credibility.

It is ironic that the quote you used actually uses capital bold letters to make it's point.

Quoting gwlaw99: Well I did not start the issue. I merely responded to the post saying this

Stop repeating the cliches about winning in Iraq and Afghanistan and get busy envisioning a peaceful path to a one state solution for the Taleban, al Qaida, the Baath party, and the US.

Come on. Anyway, where do you think Israel's borders should be?

Quoting claymisher: Come on. Anyway, where do you think Israel's borders should be?

Very close to the green line with equal land inside the green line swaped in exchange for very large settlements right on the border.

Quoting gwlaw99: It is ironic that the quote you used actually uses capital bold letters to make it's point.

No. What's ironic is you claim to have a law degree, yet don't appear to understand the concept of accurately quoting. Or, for that matter, following a link (i.e., to check evidence for an assertion).

Quoting gwlaw99: You sarcasm just makes you look desperate for a real argument.

If I were "desperate for a real argument" I wouldn't be bothering to engage with you.

Quoting gwlaw99: Very close to the green line with equal land inside the green line swaped in exchange for very large settlements right on the border.

That'll do. Now to stop the procrastinatin' and get peacemakin' ...

Quoting bjkeefe: No. What's ironic is you claim to have a law degree, yet don't appear to understand the concept of accurately quoting. Or, for that matter, following a link (i.e., to check evidence for an assertion).

Anyone can easily check the link and see that "ISRAELI WHITE PHOSPHOROUS FACTORY" is in all caps and bold.

Quoting gwlaw99: Anyone can easily check the link and see that "ISRAELI WHITE PHOSPHOROUS FACTORY" is in all caps and bold.

Exactly right. It's a spoof gossip column. (To be fair, I first thought you were taking me to task for using bold and all caps, so, sorry.)

Quoting bjkeefe: Exactly right. It's a spoof gossip column.

Which is why it was all the more amazing that you described it as:

the most accurate assessment of the Israeli/Palestinian/U.S. situation I've read in years

The author was using "humor" to make the "serious" point that all the Palestinians do is "throw" pebbles, rocks, and apparantley hand thrown rockets into Sderot. While the Israelis retaliate with "WHITE PHOSPHOROUS"

Quoting gwlaw99:

Quoting bjkeefe: Exactly right. It's a spoof gossip column.

Which is why it was all the more amazing that you described it as:

the most accurate assessment of the Israeli/Palestinian/U.S. situation I've read in years

Ah, jeezus, gw. Do you have to have everything laid out like a paint-by-number for you? Let's just start with the title of my original post:

More Truth From The Court Jester

Think about that for a while. And then try to remember the difference between form (looks like a gossip column!) and content (actually makes a serious point, via satire!). Cripes, you were probably one of those doofuses in high school English class going, "I don't see why we should pay any attention to that guy in the funny hat," weren't you?

Quoting bjkeefe: Ah, jeezus, gw. Do you have to have everything laid out like a paint-by-number for you? Let's just start with the title of my original post:

Think about that for a while.

And then try to remember the difference between form (looks like a gossip column!) and content (actually makes a serious point, via satire!).

Cripes, you were probably one of those doofuses in high school English class going, "I don't see why we should pay any attention to that guy in the funny hat," weren't you?

I really don't think you understood what I was saying at all. Let's start from the begining. You made a post titled:

"More TruthFrom The Court Jester"

A reference to the fact that court jesters were the only ones who, through humor, could actually speak the truth to a king. Like the court Jester, the columnist is trying to making a serious argument though the use of humor: That the Palestinians just throw pebbles and the brutal Israelis respond with WHITE PHOSPHOROUS. Based on the title of your post, you agree with that point. My original response to your post was simply that I believe the author got it right in one sense: That the

Quoting gwlaw99: I really don't think you understood what I was saying at all. Let's start from the begining.

[...]

Or the beginning, as the case may be. You appear to have grasped my meaning at last, although you started to wander off track by the end again. (*Sighs, mostly with relief, moves on to other less tedious posts.*)

Quoting bjkeefe: You appear to have grasped my meaning at last. (Sighs with relief, moves on to other less tedious posts.)

I am glad my hand holding explanation of what I was saying all along finally enabled you to figure it out. You got me on the typo though. One for you.

Quoting gwlaw99: I am glad my hand holding explanation of what I was saying all along finally enabled you to figure it out.

Okay, Whatfur. Whatever you say.

Sooner or later Palestinians are going to be full-fledged citizens of one country or another. I don't care if it's a binational Israel or if it's Palestine. Just get on with it already.

The problem is that if everyone continues to pursue the never-happen 2-state "solution," one state becomes (paradoxically) both more elusive and more blatantly inevitable. More elusive because you have the USA, the EU, the Arab states and the UN all leading the charge in the wrong direction (off the cliff); more obviously inevitable because more and more people on the ground will either dig in for perpetual war or simply give up on 2-state and wait out the long dark night. Palestinians have been waiting in refugee camps for 60 years. The settlements have been expanding for 40 years. The Apartheid Wall has been up for 6 years. The ghettoization (wall + checkpoints regime) has been ongoing for years. The Gaza blockade is a nightmare. All of this is immoral and unsustainable. Look at the demographics. Israeli Arabs are now 20% of the population and growing. Jewish immigration to Israel is basically over (a trickle.) The total population of Palestinians and Jews in the

Quoting Wonderment: The problem is that if everyone continues to pursue the never-happen 2-state "solution," one state becomes (paradoxically) both more elusive and more blatantly inevitable.

More elusive because you have the USA, the EU, the Arab states and the UN all leading the charge in the wrong direction (off the cliff); more obviously inevitable because more and more people on the ground will either dig in for perpetual war or simply give up on 2-state and wait out the long dark night.

Palestinians have been waiting in refugee camps for 60 years. The settlements have been expanding for 40 years. The Apartheid Wall has been up for 6 years. The ghettoization (wall + checkpoints regime) has been ongoing for years. The Gaza blockade is a nightmare.

All of this is immoral and unsustainable. Look at the demographics. Israeli Arabs are now 20% of the population and growing. Jewish immigration to Israel is basically over (a trickle.) The total population of Palestinians and Jews in the region is about equal with Palestinians growing at a considerably faster rate.

Even right-wing former PM of Israel Ehud Olmert recognized and stated that the failure of the two-state process would

I bet they have factories in Israel that make guns and bullets too.

Part of something I wrote somewhere else fulsomely drawn from some writings of others somewhere else. _________________________________ "...The road to a two-state solution gets more difficult with time. That is not because of the Israelis. Every Israel prime minister except Yitzhak Shamir favored it. It was the essence of the U. N. Partition Plan. Ben Gurion was for it—Sharret and Eshkol and Allon and Golda Meir and Begin and Rabin and Peres and Sharon and Olmert and Netanyahu, too. Had the Arabs accepted a two-state solution after the Six Day War, they would have gotten nearly everything back that they lost. The solution is imperfect. It won’t meet all demands. The biggest problem for the Palestinians and Arabs outside Palestine is Israel as a Jewish state. But Israel’s Jewishness was written into its very charter by the General Assembly 62 years ago. National character informed the post-World War I formula for peace after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. It was bound up with Zionism. The potency of the idea of a Jewish state was clear. So too the map of Europe as race and ethnic based nation states was axiomatic. It has

"...The road to a two-state solution gets more difficult with time. That is not because of the Israelis. Every Israel prime minister except Yitzhak Shamir favored it. It was the essence of the U. N. Partition Plan. Ben Gurion was for it—Sharret and Eshkol and Allon and Golda Meir and Begin and Rabin and Peres and Sharon and Olmert and Netanyahu, too.

Yes, they sometimes say they are. They just have a funny way of showing it. Claiming every Israeli PM favored a two-state solution (and I'm glad you and Netanyahu apparently had a private conversation about it) is like saying every leader of the USSR favored democracy, autonomy and world peace. Or that South Africa favored equality for blacks. Speaking of which, here's an idea!!

The Black Homeland Citizenship Act of 1970 marked a new phase in the Bantustan strategy. It changed the status of the black so that they were no longer citizens of South Africa, but became citizens of one of the ten autonomous territories. The aim was to ensure whites became the demographic majority within South Africa by having all ten Bantustans choose "independence".

Quoting Wonderment: Yes, they sometimes say they are. They just have a funny way of showing it.

Claiming every Israeli PM favored a two-state solution (and I'm glad you and Netanyahu apparently had a private conversation about it) is like saying every leader of the USSR favored democracy, autonomy and world peace. Or that South Africa favored equality for blacks.

Speaking of which, here's an idea!!

Wonderment: As I read you, textually and subtextually, my sense is that you are a lost soul. You do not know whom or what you are. Your one state argument may find resonance on this thread, but in the actuality of the world it is as nothing. When you compare the thriving, dynamic, wholly imperfect actuality of Israel with the sheer failed statedness of what surrounds it, as theocratic thugs fight with secular thugs, for whom terror is way of life, you shoud be ashamed of your prescriptions. When you consider what now numbering about 5,000,000 Jews made of a God forsaken postage plot of dry desert land over the more than 61 last years agriculturally, politically, socially, culturally, academically, economically, militarily, and compare all of that to an infinite variety of Arab failiure, you should condemn yourself to years of

Quoting basman: Wonderment:

As I read you, textually and subtextually, my sense is that you are a lost soul. You do not know whom or what you are.

Your one state argument may find resonance on this thread, but in the actuality of the world it is as nothing.

When you compare the thriving, dynamic, wholly imperfect actuality of Israel with the sheer failed statedness of what surrounds it, as theocratic thugs fight with secular thugs, for whom terror is way of life, you shoud be ashamed of your prescriptions. When you consider what now numbering about 5,000,000 Jews made of a God forsaken postage plot of dry desert land over the more than 61 last years agriculturally, politically, socially, culturally, academically, economically, militarily, and compare all of that to an infinite variety of Arab failiure, you should condemn yourself to years of metarphoric hard labour for wanting to assimilate the former into the latter.

Your easy to say, blithe, talking point--rooted argument so far from the lived reality of your people and their miraculous accomplishments, are, as I say--regardless of assent on this site, also easy here to come by--as nothing. But what you say, what you want to destroy by extinguishing, puts me in

...my sense is that you are a lost soul.

Yes, whatever.

Quoting Wonderment: Yes, whatever.

At least he didn't call you "self-hating."

At least he didn't call you "self-hating."

Yet.

Quoting Wonderment: Yes, whatever.

Exactly! (But what you really want to say is "Yeah whatever!" to really get across your bored indifference.) Itzik Basman

Politico today:

Haaretz reported that conservative Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has feuded with Obama, has slurred both [ Rahm] Emanuel and fellow senior adviser David Axelrod as “self-hating Jews.”

Quoting Wonderment: Politico today:

Haaretz reported that conservative Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has feuded with Obama, has slurred both [ Rahm] Emanuel and fellow senior adviser David Axelrod as “self-hating Jews.”

You should drop a note to Bibi pointing to my earlier comment, and tell him that he needs to find a new insult, since even the goyim are now mocking this one for its staleness.

...since even the goyim are now mocking this one for its staleness.

Ha! I will immediately let self-loving Bibi know your sentiments. The worst part, however, is that I didn't even know David Axelrod was Jewish. I need to do my tribal homework better. Also, I liked it better in the old days when self-loving was a euphemsim for Onanism which was a euphemism for you-know-whating, which displeases God: Wikipedia:

...after God killed Onan's older brother Er, Judah asked Onan to have sex with Tamar, Er's widow, so that the offspring could be declared Er's heir. Onan had sex with Tamar, but performed coitus interruptus each time, spilling his seed on the ground..This displeased God, who killed him....

Quoting Wonderment: [...]

I did not know the etymology for onanism. Thanks for that. (By the way, Firefox's spell-checker did not recognize onanism, and suggested as one possible replacement ... satanism. (I blame Brendan Eich.))

Shorter Netanyahu:
____________________________
1967-1972 Soldier and officer in "Sayeret Matkal", the IDF elite commando unit
1972-1976 B.Sc. in Architecture, M.Sc. in Business Management, MIT
1976-1978 Consultant with the Boston Consulting Group
1978-1980 Head of the Jonathan Institute, an NGO devoted to the study of
terror
1980-1982 Member of the senior management team, Rim Industries Ltd.
1982-1984 Deputy Chief of Mission, Israeli Embassy in Washington, DC
1984-1988 Ambassador of Israel to the UN
1988-1991 Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
1991-1992 Deputy Minister in the Prime Minister's Office
1993-1996 Chairman of Likud, leader of the opposition
1996-1999 Prime Minister
1999-2002 Consultant to hi-tech companies
2002-2003 Minister of Foreign Affairs
2003-2005 Minister of Finance
2005-2009 Chairman of Likud, leader of the opposition
2009 Prime Minister Netanyahu was born in 1949 in Tel Aviv and grew up in Jerusalem. His high school years were spent in the U.S., where his father, historian Benzion Netanyahu, was conducting research. Returning to Israel in 1967, Netanyahu enlisted in the IDF and served in the elite commando unit, Sayeret Matkal. He took part in a number of special operations, including the rescue of hostages in a hijacked Sabena airplane in 1972. In the same year, he was cited for outstanding operational leadership by Major General Mordechai Gur. After his discharge from the IDF in 1972, Mr. Netanyahu fought in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 and reached the rank of captain. Netanyahu received a

Quoting claymisher: Hey dude, that 2,000 years of statelessness should have taught a little humility, right? You're in might-makes-right territory here.

You want a little humility do you? How much? Enough for another Holocaust? Fuck humility I say. As Netanyahu once said, "When they lay down their arms, we'll lay down ours. If we lay down ours first, they will slaughter us." You want a country of shtetl Jews to roll over and die. Never gonna' happen. And if might has to make right, Israel's gonna' make a lot of right, dude. Count on it. And I should be humble about some delusional schmuck airily spouting off about the need for a one state solution as a normative resolution of things Israeli/Palestinian? Read my post to him and fuck that wish for humility too. Until Israel can deal with a Philosopher King she will do well to bend an ear Thrasymachus's way or she'll wind up humbly drinking hemlock while the real world crashes down on untethered pseudo utopian prescription. Itzik Basman

shorter basman: "I have a hard-on for netanyahu!"

Quoting basman: p.s. Waiting breathlessly for...more on jerking off.

looks like you have that "handled" just fine yourself.

Quoting popcorn_karate: shorter basman: "I have a hard-on for netanyahu!"

looks like you have that "handled" just fine yourself.

Not me, never, not even once, not even when I was about 12 1/2, over at my best friend Saul Perlov's house in Winnipeg at 237 Inkster Boulevard on April 30, 1959 at 4:37 p.m. Central Time and seemed to be smiling a lot. Itzik Basman

ok. totally funny. you win.

As Netanyahu once said, "When they lay down their arms, we'll lay down ours. If we lay down ours first, they will slaughter us." You want a country of shtetl Jews to roll over and die. Never gonna' happen. And if might has to make right, Israel's gonna' make a lot of right, dude.

Now that you've called me a lost soul, a shmuck and an adolescent for expressing a political view you don't agree with, I will make it a wee bit personal too: From just where in space-time are you spewing the Rambo rant about slaughtering people? Canada, isn't it? Easy to be a militant frothing-at-the-mouth Zionist in Ottawa or Toronto, isn't it? Or perhaps I'm wrong. You' escaped the Shoah, made Aliyah, spent your early years in the Kibbutz turnip fields and served heroically in the IDF, putting your life on the line time after time to prove you'd never go down without taking out a few evil Ali Babas with you? My bet is no. You're bloviating from the suburbs. You wouldn't let your children die in Gaza for the IDF any more than George Bush would send Jenna and Barbara to Falluja. You're just advocating killing

Quoting Wonderment: Now that you've called me a lost soul, a shmuck and an adolescent for expressing a political view you don't agree with, I will make it a wee bit personal too:

From just where in space-time are you spewing the Rambo rant about slaughtering people? Canada, isn't it?

Easy to be a militant frothing-at-the-mouth Zionist in Ottawa or Toronto, isn't it?

Or perhaps I'm wrong. You' escaped the Shoah, made Aliyah, spent your early years in the Kibbutz turnip fields and served heroically in the IDF, putting your life on the line time after time to prove you'd never go down without taking out a few evil Ali Babas with you?

My bet is no. You're bloviating from the suburbs.

You wouldn't let your children die in Gaza for the IDF any more than George Bush would send Jenna and Barbara to Falluja. You're just advocating killing and getting killed for other people. Perhaps time for a little soul-searching, Iztik.

For a pacifist, wonderment sure does put up a good fight!

Quoting Wonderment: Now that you've called me a lost soul, a shmuck and an adolescent for expressing a political view you don't agree with, I will make it a wee bit personal too:

From just where in space-time are you spewing the Rambo rant about slaughtering people? Canada, isn't it?

Easy to be a militant frothing-at-the-mouth Zionist in Ottawa or Toronto, isn't it?

Or perhaps I'm wrong. You' escaped the Shoah, made Aliyah, spent your early years in the Kibbutz turnip fields and served heroically in the IDF, putting your life on the line time after time to prove you'd never go down without taking out a few evil Ali Babas with you?

My bet is no. You're bloviating from the suburbs.

You wouldn't let your children die in Gaza for the IDF any more than George Bush would send Jenna and Barbara to Falluja. You're just advocating killing and getting killed for other people. Perhaps time for a little soul-searching, Iztik.

It's Itzik, not Iztik. Man, every word you say about me is irrelevant. What's relevant is the substance of your view: one statism: the death knell for Israel as a Jewish state. Thank goodness no one who has to

Quoting basman: You want a little humility do you?

How much?

Enough for another Holocaust?

Fuck humility I say.

As Netanyahu once said, "When they lay down their arms, we'll lay down ours. If we lay down ours first, they will slaughter us." You want a country of shtetl Jews to roll over and die. Never gonna' happen. And if might has to make right, Israel's gonna' make a lot of right, dude.

Count on it.

And I should be humble about some delusional schmuck airily spouting off about the need for a one state solution as a normative resolution of things Israeli/Palestinian?

Read my post to him and fuck that wish for humility too.

Until Israel can deal with a Philosopher King she will do well to bend an ear Thrasymachus's way or she'll wind up humbly drinking hemlock while the real world crashes down on untethered pseudo utopian prescription.

Itzik Basman

I'm going to let that go. Let's cut to the chase: where do you think Israel's borders should be?

Quoting claymisher: I'm going to let that go.

Let's cut to the chase: where do you think Israel's borders should be?

I'm not sure. Probably something along the lines of Olmert's offer in 2007, though I'm not sure about withdrawal from the Golan. My view too is that Israel should get out of the occupied territories, but not the satellite communities virtually adjacent to Jerusalem even before a overall resolution is reached, if it ever is, consistent with its security, a position along the lines of Orens's and for much the same reasons. The micro details of this are beyond what I know. Itzik Basman

For a pacifist, wonderment sure does put up a good fight!

Pacifist: not doormat, not weakling. Pacifism -- a standard I personally am far from living up to -- requires much greater strength and courage than warism.

Quoting basman: I'm not sure.

Probably something along the lines of Olmert's offer in 2007, though I'm not sure about withdrawal from the Golan. My view too is that Israel should get out of the occupied territories, but not the satellite communities virtually adjacent to Jerusalem even before a overall resolution is reached, if it ever is, consistent with its security, a position along the lines of Orens's and for much the same reasons.

The micro details of this are beyond what I know.

Itzik Basman

p.s. And Israel should probably keep any settled communities adjacent or continguous with the Green Line besides the Jersalem satellite communities.

Quoting Wonderment: Pacifist: not doormat, not weakling.

Pacifism -- a standard I personally am far from living up to -- requires much greater strength and courage than warism.

What is the content of your pacifism, its scope? Does it extend to your personal experiences in your every day social life? And as though the opposite of pacifism is "warism". That is incoherent. Someone who is not a pacifist is not ipso facto a "warist". Itzik Basman

Someone who is not a pacifist is not ipso facto a "warist".

No?

Quoting Wonderment: No?

"No?" What the hell does that mean? Don't be cryptic. Say clearly what you mean please. And please answer my questions about the content and scope of your pacifism. If you answer that your pacifism applies to your personal experiences in your daily social life, I will want to present you with examples that, I think, destroy any coherent chance of sustaining that position. And with that position gone, I will argue that your pacifism cannot be coherently maintained in larger spheres of human interaction. And then I will argue that your pacifism is of an entirely wrong headed piece with your entirely wrong headed prescription of one statism. I can try to do all this, I know, without a scintilla of ad hominem argument. If you wish not to enter this fray, I will understand that you more readily put forth positions that you are not equally ready to defend, regardless of your ostensibly high minded signing off with multi translated biblical borrowing--to wit: Seek Peace and Pursue it; בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela --Psalm 34:15, whatever.
Itzik Basman

Quoting basman: I'm not sure.

Probably something along the lines of Olmert's offer in 2007, though I'm not sure about withdrawal from the Golan. My view too is that Israel should get out of the occupied territories, but not the satellite communities virtually adjacent to Jerusalem even before a overall resolution is reached, if it ever is, consistent with its security, a position along the lines of Orens's and for much the same reasons.

The micro details of this are beyond what I know.

Itzik Basman

That's close enough to the two-state deal. You're either going to get that or you get the one-state deal. So maybe it'd be worth canning the bluster and bombast ("Until Israel can deal with a Philosopher King she will do well to bend an ear Thrasymachus's way or she'll wind up humbly drinking hemlock while the real world crashes down on untethered pseudo utopian prescription") and get on with the peacemakin'.

Quoting claymisher: That's close enough to the two-state deal. You're either going to get that or you get the one-state deal. So maybe it'd be worth canning the bluster and bombast ("Until Israel can deal with a Philosopher King she will do well to bend an ear Thrasymachus's way or she'll wind up humbly drinking hemlock while the real world crashes down on untethered pseudo utopian prescription") and get on with the peacemakin'.

What can your line of reasoning possibly be here? Israel needs to stay on guard and defend itself and fight for its right to be a Jewish state. And there will be no right of retrun. That's what all the "bluster and bombast" comes down to. And get on with the peace makin' with who? Did you happen to see any news along these lines: "...The administration has not yet commented--and probably won't comment--on the news that the president of the Palestinian Authority, partner of the U.S. and Israel in peace processing, is today on a visit to Khartoum for talks with the president of Sudan. Omar al-Bashir has a warrant out for his head

If you wish not to enter this fray...

I don't. Have a nice day.

Quoting basman: What can your line of reasoning possibly be here?

Israel needs to stay on guard and defend itself and fight for its right to be a Jewish state. And there will be no right of retrun. That's what all the "bluster and bombast" comes down to. And get on with the peace makin' with who? Did you happen to see any news along these lines:

"...The administration has not yet commented--and probably won't comment--on the news that the president of the Palestinian Authority, partner of the U.S. and Israel in peace processing, is today on a visit to Khartoum for talks with the president of Sudan. Omar al-Bashir has a warrant out for his head on charges of genocide....

The story about Abbas as tourist was in an article by Khaled Abu Toameh in the Jerusalem Post. Al-Bashir is actually a big player in the Arab world, mostly in the role Sudan has taken on in the transfer of weapons from Iran and Syria to Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and Eritrea. Remember that Israel bombed a desert convoy in Sudan a few months ago: at the request

Quoting Wonderment: I don't. Have a nice day.

Of course not. I expected no less. Your pacifism is regnant. Itzik Basman

Quoting claymisher: So what, no peace until there's nothing in the JPost to get worked up about? Look, there's always going to be some excuse to put off the inevitable. You know what needs to happen: give up on West Bank. End the occupation, far-flung outposts, checkpoints, blockades, the works. Give up the illusion of control. Just let Israel rule Israel, and whatever happens on the other side of the wall happens. Give not occupying/blockading/controlling the neighbors a shot.

Right, 8000 rockets later, can we say that worked out well with Gaza. I wish the Israelis could do that, but how can they ignore actual experience.

Quoting claymisher: So what, no peace until there's nothing in the JPost to get worked up about? Look, there's always going to be some excuse to put off the inevitable. You know what needs to happen: give up on West Bank. End the occupation, far-flung outposts, checkpoints, blockades, the works. Give up the illusion of control. Just let Israel rule Israel, and whatever happens on the other side of the wall happens. Give not occupying/blockading/controlling the neighbors a shot.

To quote Wonderment, with paraphrase to get the teen age slouch into it, "yeah whatever". Get real. Brass tacks are that Israel, wholly imperfect, a mighty, little state with the closest thing to a democratic polity that you can find for endless miles in that misbegotten region of the world, is besieged by neighbouring and beyond, fanatical pariahs (whose representative in one cited instance, goes to see Bashir to call off Hamas, and stuff like that). Peace will come, prost and poshit, when Israel has, as they say, a partner for peace. The rest is all talk, talk, talk. And vile talk when it comes to Israel agreeing to self destruct with one statism and when such talk comes from people who should know better but would sacrifice

Quoting gwlaw99: Right, 8000 rockets later, can we say that worked out well with Gaza. I wish the Israelis could do that, but how can they ignore actual experience.

Come on guys, "not occupying with military force" is setting the bar pretty low. There's still the Gaza blockade. Gazans can't enter or exist freely, don't control their airport, don't have their own currency, don't collect their taxes, can't trade with the outside world, etc. You that already. You guys both want a two-state solution. What are you waiting for? Some decent interval to pass with no violence on the Palestinian side? Their total surrender? Do you want them to strip naked and lash themselves before they get to be free citizens of their own country? What? At what point will you allow the inevitable to happen?

Quoting basman: TPeace will come, prost and poshit, when Israel has, as they say, a partner for peace.

that will never happen as long as Israelis occupy Palestine, assassinate palestinian leaders, and generally make life miserable for palestinians. you'll never be secure being oppressors, you will create what you fear.

Quoting claymisher: Come on guys, "not occupying with military force" is setting the bar pretty low. There's still the Gaza blockade. Gazans can enter or exist freely, don't control their airport, don't have their own currency, don't collect their taxes, can't trade with the outside world, etc. You that already.

You guys both want a two-state solution. What are you waiting for? Some decent interval to pass with no violence on the Palestinian side? Their total surrender? Do you want them to strip naked and lash themselves before they get to be free citizens of their own country? What? At what point will you allow the inevitable to happen?

For all practical purposes, the Gazans were free to do whatever they wanted when the Israelis withdrew (except the airport--for a good reason--lessons from 911) and they threw it away. They decided it was better to take Israeli withdrawal as a sign of weakness and vote for a group dedicated to violence (Hamas) rather than an opportunity to improve their lives. None of those Israeli measures stopped 8000 rockets from Gaza. Let’s say the Israelis pull out behind the security barrier completely and rockets start flying from the

Quoting gwlaw99: For all practical purposes, the Gazans were free to do whatever they wanted when the Israelis withdrew (except the airport--for a good reason--lessons from 911)

That's not really true. They don't have their own currency, tariffs, tax collection, border controls, etc. They're blockaded. Look, the Palestinians are never going to be saints, especially not after two generations of occupation. Nobody would be. Saying "we can't stop occupying until they stop resisting" is the same as "we can't stop occupying ever." People see right through that. Come on, answer the question. What are you waiting for?

At what point will you allow the inevitable to happen?

It's not inevitable. That's why this dialogue is titled "the narrowing window." No serious Israeli thinks Palestinian statehood is inevitable -- not on the left, not on the right. The extreme right wants another ethnic cleansing. The Netanyahu-right (Likud) only paid lip service to statehood when the US twisted his arm (and while he winked to his cronies). The Palestinians are split on the issue. Some want Islamic control, some want 2 states, some want one democratic state.

Quoting claymisher: That's not really true. They don't have their own currency, tariffs, tax collection, border controls, etc. They're blockaded.

Look, the Palestinians are never going to be saints, especially not after two generations of occupation. Nobody would be. Saying "we can't stop occupying until they stop resisting" is the same as "we can't stop occupying ever." People see right through that.

Come on, answer the question. What are you waiting for?

Who stopped them from making their own currency (who cares about this and it would have been stupid to do so )and collecting their own taxes? They had an open border with Egypt and there was no blockade until after the Gazans chose to elect a group dedicated to violence against Israel. Israel made a huge gesture by forcibly removing 10,000 people, removing all soldiers and checkpoints, and allowing an open border with Egypt. Gazans had a chance to better their lives and they chose violence instead. I disagree. Look at India, for example. Answer my question though. If Israel withdraws completely and the rockets start flying into their civilian towns from the West bank, then what? Israel will have to go back in to defend its citizens, civilians will be killed

Quoting gwlaw99: Answer my question though. If Israel withdraws completely and the rockets start flying into their civilian towns from the West bank, then what?

I'll answer: I don't know. Bad things could happen. But good things could happen too, and sooner or later Palestinians will have a state, either their own or in a binational Israel/Palestine. You can't kick this down the road forever. You're not answering my question. What are you waiting for? What? If not now then when? What has to happen? If there's no answer, if there's always some reason for not getting to two-state or one-state, if Palestinians are forever stateless and disenfranchised, then you're just advocating apartheid.

Quoting Wonderment: It's not inevitable. That's why this dialogue is titled "the narrowing window."

No serious Israeli thinks Palestinian statehood is inevitable -- not on the left, not on the right.

The extreme right wants another ethnic cleansing. The Netanyahu-right (Likud) only paid lip service to statehood when the US twisted his arm (and while he winked to his cronies).

The Palestinians are split on the issue. Some want Islamic control, some want 2 states, some want one democratic state.

I think you might be right.

Quoting claymisher: I'll answer: I don't know. Bad things could happen. But good things could happen too, and sooner or later Palestinians will have a state, either their own or in a binational Israel/Palestine. You can't kick this down the road forever.

You're not answering my question. What are you waiting for? What? If not now then when? What has to happen? If there's no answer, if there's always some reason for not getting to two-state or one-state, if Palestinians are forever stateless and disenfranchised, then you're just advocating apartheid.

You question infantilizes the Palestinians by making them incapable of making choices. The Palestinians could have a state right now if they wanted it. They just wouldn't get all of what they want. What are they waiting for? If there is no answer, I guess the Palestinians just want to kill Israelis and not have a state. See how your simplistic analysis just falls apart upon simple scrutiny. Israel isn't keeping the Palestinians stateless any more than the Palestinians are keeping themselves stateless. The Israelis want the Palestinian state not to infringe on its land and rights and the Palestinians think they should have that land. That is what

. Calling Israel and Apartheid state is like saying that commiting a hate crime is the exact same thing as attacking someone in self defense when they are trying to kill you. It is the same thing as calling the US an apartheid state because it occupies Afghanistan, but doesn't form a binational state with the Taliban.

Uh-huh. Today's LA Times Op-Ed by an Israeli Professor from Ben-Gurion University calling for a boycott:

The most accurate way to describe Israel today is as an apartheid state. For more than 42 years, Israel has controlled the land between the Jordan Valley and the Mediterranean Sea. Within this region about 6 million Jews and close to 5 million Palestinians reside. Out of this population, 3.5 million Palestinians and almost half a million Jews live in the areas Israel occupied in 1967, and yet while these two groups live in the same area, they are subjected to totally different legal systems. The Palestinians are stateless and lack many of the most basic human rights. By sharp contrast, all Jews -- whether they live in the occupied territories or in Israel -- are citizens of the state of

Link to the international boycott Bilboa Plan

Quoting Wonderment: Uh-huh. Today's LA Times Op-Ed by an Israeli Professor from Ben-Gurion University calling for a boycott:

Oh my god, its Norman Finkelstein's best friend Neve Gordon writing the same editorial for the 10th time. Shouldn't he be quiting his job and leaving Israel if he wants it boycotted. Oh that's right he's a total hypocrite. He wants a boycott unless it hurts him. He is such an extremist that his articles are often re published on neo-nazi hate sites like Zundelsite. MIT professor Noam Chomsky wrote 100 articles and books saying the US is the worst country in the world so it must be true because he's a college professor and he's American.

Oh my god, its Norman Finkelstein's best friend Neve Gordon writing the same editorial for the 10th time. Shouldn't he be quiting his job and leaving Israel if he wants a boycott. Oh that's right he's a total hypocrite. He wants a boycott unless it hurts him.

MIT professor Noam Chomsky wrote 100 articles and books saying the US is the worst country in the world so it must be true because he's a college professor and he's American.

Very substantive critique of the op ed, GW!

Quoting gwlaw99: The Palestinians could have a state right now if they wanted it.

How? I've been asking you guys to get creative and tell me how the occupation/blockade is going to end. What I get is tales of Palestinian perfidy. It's enough to make one suspect you don't really want a two-state solution. But everybody knows either Israel ends the occupation/blockade and lets the Palestinians rule their own land, or the Palestinians are going to ask for the vote in Israel. Clock's ticking.

Gordon isnt making anargument. He's just making assertions without any argument. I already made my argument above. Go read it. Gordon is litteraly a traitor. While Arafat was ordering Israelis to be blown up in busses and restaurants, Gordon went to Ramallah to act as a human shield in Arafats compound.

Gordon is litteraly [sic] a traitor.

Fact check:

Neve Gordon is a Senior Lecturer and head of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, who writes on issues relating to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and human rights. A third-generation Israeli, Gordon did his military service in a IDF Paratrooper unit, and suffered severe injuries in action at Rosh Hanikra, as a result of which he has a 42 percent disability. During the first Intifada he served as director of Physicians for Human Rights, Israel. During the second Intifada he was an active member in Ta'ayush, Arab-Jewish Partnership.

Quoting claymisher: How?

I've been asking you guys to get creative and tell me how the occupation/blockade is going to end. What I get is tales of Palestinian perfidy. It's enough to make one suspect you don't really want a two-state solution. But everybody knows either Israel ends the occupation/blockade and lets the Palestinians rule their own land, or the Palestinians are going to ask for the vote in Israel. Clock's ticking.

Sorry for typos as I am using my phone keypad I already said how. The Palestinian stop killing each other and form a government that renounces violence and arrests every person who does not. They agree to a demilitarized state with Ramallah as the capitol with the defensive barrier being the border. The palestinians would have a state within a year.
The palestians would not like this result but they could have a state and end the conflict if they chose to. What you are asking is for Israel to do the same thing. Give in and end the conflict with a result it does not like. So. Either side could end the conflict and create a two state

Quoting Wonderment: Fact check:

and he acted as a human shield for Arafat while Arafat was blowing up Israelis

Quoting gwlaw99: Sorry for typos as I am using my phone keypad

I already said how. The Palestinian stop killing each other and form a government that renounces violence and arrests every person who does not. They agree to a demilitarized state with Ramallah as the capitol with the defensive barrier being the border. The palestinians would have a state within a year.
The palestians would not like this result but they could have a state and end the conflict if they chose to.

What you are asking is for Israel to do the same thing. Give in and end the conflict with a result it does not like. So. Either side could end the conflict and create a two state solution if they simply gave in. You are asking the Israelis to give in to end the conflict, but the Palestinians could do the same if they chose to.

The Palestinians want a state less than they want to not give in. I dont blame them, but that is their choice. That is why the Palestinians are just as resposible for their current situation as the Israelis, who also, undertandibly, do not

I find Gordon's solutions interesting. First is the destruction of Israel--the so caled one state solution. Second is exactly the same two state solution Arafat rejected at Taba. So his world is this Israel--We are offering you Plan XYZ at Taba. Palestinians--We do not accept your offer of Plan XYZ and we do not make any counter offer; we'd rather blow up 1000 of your citizens with suicide bombers to force you offer more. Gordon-- Israel is an apartheid state for not offering Plan XYZ

Quoting Wonderment: Pacifist: not doormat, not weakling.

Pacifism -- a standard I personally am far from living up to -- requires much greater strength and courage than warism.

Go ahead....I know it was a Fur original but I won't mind you adopting it as your own when you need to explain yourself to others.

Quoting Whatfur: Go ahead....I know it was a Fur original but I won't mind you adopting it as your own when you need to explain yourself to others.

Delusions of grandeur, commonly seen in psychosis, may be seen as distinct from megalomania: a megalomaniac's overwhelming and excessive preoccupation with his or her own importance, though it may be considered pathological, is not necessarily delusional. A delusion of grandeur, if it is a true delusion, must meet the psychiatric criteria for delusion.

A or B?

Quoting graz: A or B?

C. "Actually graz you really are one of the biggest instigators here. Bopping in with insult and little else." C. [x] My inconsequentional addition was suppose to be humerous only because my "Wonder Boy: The Man Who Puts the Fist in Pacifist" fit in quite nicely and had nothing to do with my delusions. Funny though, I saw your name as the last poster to this diavlog listing and as I really had not been that involved here, and for the fact that there has been an awfully good discussion going on; I really entered wondering if you, for once, were going to add anything of substance to the conversation. Yep...once again...I was delusional. I guess I need to stop going with my delusions and stick with the predictable. Thanks for your input BIH2.

Quoting Whatfur:

My inconsequentional addition was suppose to be humerous only because my "Wonder Boy: The Man Who Puts the Fist in Pacifist" fit in quite nicely and had nothing to do with my delusions.

More tumerous, not humerous:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe:
You aren't looking for debate. Your only objective concerning health care reform is to type out the talking points you've picked up from Hugh Hewitt and other FUD-mongerers on rightwing talk radio. You never respect anyone who dissents with you (NB: I'm not including myself here) -- any time someone raises a legitimate point that you don't have a sound bite on tap to respond with, you just spew a bunch of insults.

It's worse than that -- every discussion the troll participates in becomes about the troll. It's pure narcissism.

Quoting Whatfur: I just only have so much time to listen currently so I pick those topics where right wing voices are needed and are most important right now.

Who was the first here asking for detailed healthcare debate??

"Actually graz you really are one of the biggest instigators here. Bopping in with insult and little else." Point taken, but I feel compelled to

Quoting graz: "Actually graz you really are one of the biggest instigators here. Bopping in with insult and little else."

Point taken, but I feel compelled to counter your crap with the same. Perhaps we need help... maybe we can get a two for one special? You are a vile character who garners little respect. It's a foregone conclusion that you are a classic troll. If not, why don't you man-up and answer the critics that started a whole thread in honor of your dreck?:
http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=3762

Of course you felt compelled, you were stultified. Whoda guessed that your backup to your bopping in with insult is BIHUno. Must be true.
Pretty sure the thread was not all about me as "Pops" is lucid enough to recognize that its is not all about me...matter of fact from the start of that thread:
"I'm not finding very many good discussions lately. generally every thread becomes a flame war with Lyle/Whatfur/Pisc/Dsteve (and others) on one side and Bj/Aemjeff/Clay (and others) on the other side." Maybe YOUR "delusions of granduer" were shattered by your only mention being as part of "(and others)". Almost inconsequential. That's about right. What answer do you think they

Quoting Whatfur: Of course you felt compelled, you were stultified.

Quoting BIHDoh: funkydung

donkeyflung?

Thank you for your contribution to the topic, Whatfur. It's great to see someone here with something truly substantive to say. Brilliant, as always.

I said "over and out", but here are more facts on the ground. There is no partner for peace and count me as a proponent here of the half empty school of thought. http://www.tnr.com/tnrtv/index.html?..._ap7e7gtHGhF1k
It mystifies that so many intelligent, well educated people refuse to believe their lying eyes, over and above the pacifist's blithe call for a one state solution.
Israeli achivements in science, medicine, agriculture, computer science, industry and on and on are mind boggling and give a paradoxically tragic sense of what genius and achievment the world has been deprived of by the Holocaust over and above the sheer unfathomability of the genocide itself. One statism, I repeat, is an self indlugent abstraction and the explicit repudiation of Israel's miraculous existence and accomplishments, which are non pareil, particularly so amongst its sworn enemies. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad anyone; Yassir Arafat; or, getting down home, Mahmoud Abbas, whose doctoral thesis denies that six million Jews died in World War II. "In his Arabic-language book 'The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism' Abbas rejects 'the Zionist fantasy, the fantastic lie that six million Jews were killed. The limited number that did succumb were victims of a joint [Nazi-Zionist] plot'."
Itzik Basman

Quoting basman: ...Israeli achivements in science, medicine, agriculture, computer science, industry and on and on are mind boggling and give a paradoxically tragic sense of what genius and achievment the world has been deprived of by the Holocaust over and above the sheer unfathomability of the genocide itself.
...

A true believer of evolution and natural selection might argue that it is because of the Holocaust and other various exterminations that this obvious concentration of talent has occurred not in spite of it.

Quoting piscivorous: A true believer of evolution and natural selection might argue that it is because of the Holocaust that this obvious concentration of talent has occurred not in spite of it.

Pisc, I'd be very careful to be explicit about what you mean in this regard. I have no doubt that you don't mean to imply anything that could be regarded as offensive, but I think there's an awful lot of room for misunderstanding.

Quoting Wonderment: Thank you for your contribution to the topic, Whatfur. It's great to see someone here with something truly substantive to say. Brilliant, as always.

Whatever Wonder Boy. I assume then you sent graz a private message complimenting him on his self-portrait too. My first and last input would have been your slogan, which I know causes at least one side of you mouth to curve upwards. How about you pick up the thread from there? Mr. Switzerland.

I was aware of the implications before I said it and those that wish to attribute evil and nefarious meaning to it are welcome to project that motivation upon me. As adversity is conducive to insuring the survival of those most adaptive, it is not a giant leap, to conclude that the greater the adversity the more likely it is to select those individuals that are better at adapting. The greatest tool of survival that mankind posses is his intelligence so those processes and events that select on the ability to survive will tend to favor those individuals that are smart enough to adapt. As a biologist, an avid outdoorsman, and active observer of nature I have noticed that nature is not just a kind loving mother and provider it is also rather a harsh mistress; whose lessons mankind has adopted to it's own purposes; some for good and some for evil. This observation is not to imply that I condone the Holocaust, or any of the numerous atrocities that man has committed upon their fellow men, because I don't, it is only an observation of natural reality. Edited for my clarity

Quoting piscivorous: I was aware of the implications before I said it and those that wish to attribute evil and nefarious meaning to it are welcome to project that motivation upon me. As adversity is conducive to insuring the survival of those most adaptive, it is not a giant leap, to conclude that the greater the adversity the more likely it is to select those individuals that are better at adapting. The greatest tool of survival that mankind posses is his intelligence so those processes and events that select on the ability to survive will tend to favor those individuals that are smart enough to adapt.

As a biologist, an avid outdoorsman, and active observer of nature I have noticed that nature is not just a kind loving mother and provider it is also rather a harsh mistress; whose lessons mankind has adopted to it's own purposes; some for good and some for evil. This observation is not to imply that I condone the Holocaust, or any of the numerous atrocities that man has committed upon their fellow men, because I don't, it is only an observation of natural reality.

Edited

Emph. added:

Quoting piscivorous: I was aware of the implications before I said it and those that wish to attribute evil and nefarious meaning to it are welcome to project that motivation upon me. As adversity is conducive to insuring the survival of those most adaptive, it is not a giant leap, to conclude that the greater the adversity the more likely it is to select those individuals that are better at adapting. The greatest tool of survival that mankind posses is his intelligence so those processes and events that select on the ability to survive will tend to favor those individuals that are smart enough to adapt.

As a biologist, an avid outdoorsman, and active observer of nature I have noticed that nature is not just a kind loving mother and provider it is also rather a harsh mistress; whose lessons mankind has adopted to it's own purposes; some for good and some for evil. This observation is not to imply that I condone the Holocaust, or any of the numerous atrocities that man has committed upon their fellow men, because I don't, it is only an observation of natural reality.

Edited for my clarity

Most accurate use of a personal pronoun ever.

Quoting basman: I am no biologist; I avoid going outside except to pick up Chinese food when delivery is too slow; and I try to ignore nature to the greatest extent I can, much preferring the virtual world where I can minimize my need for a hip or knee replacement.

I attribute to you no bad motives and bear you no ill will. Finally, I have only a passing understanding of Darwin, probably enough to fake my way through a cocktail party, but not much more.

That said, it strikes me as perverse and bizarre to read natural selection into your constructed nexus between the Holocaust and the sheer mind boggling fact of Israeli achievement such as I began to outline a bit above. There seems to be a kind of deterministic reasoning at play here, an attempt to wedge a highly particular account of a vast and complex set of events into the Procrustean bed of certain given presuppositions.

It seems to me a kind of vulgar Darwinism.

Back to the Lo Mein for me I suppose.

Itzik Basman

I don't think I was suggesting that it natural selection at work but rather a human imposed artificial selection

Quoting piscivorous: I don't think I was suggesting that it natural selection at work but rather a human imposed artificial selection ('mankind has adopted to it's own purposes'). And yes there is some artificial forcing of the narrative to fit into the scientific doctrine of Darwinism but your use of use of emotionalism "...what genius and achievment the world has been deprived of..." is also somewhat of of a contrived argument.

Have you ever heard the theory that the reason the United States became such an exceptional country was because the process of making the pilgrimage to the New World from Europe was a kind of "natural selection" in the sense that, disproportionately, the people who could make the journey and survive on the other end were people of exceptional strength, health, wit, courage, resourcefulness, and intelligence? When I read your original point up thread, I thought you were suggesting the same was true of the Zionest project, that the migration of Jews to Palestine could have similarly selected for people with exceptional traits. If that's how you intended them, then your remarks were a compliment to Israel and her people. I have no

It is not just about the pilgrimage to Israel. The history of the Jews people is one of overcoming adversity and surviving despite the odds which means the Darwinian selection principal has been applied to them, on an accelerated basis, time after time.

Quoting piscivorous: It is not just about the pilgrimage to Israel. The history of the Jews people is one of overcoming adversity and surviving despite the odds which means the Darwinian selection principal has been applied to them, on an accelerated basis, time after time.

That seems just a wee bit more controversial a suggestion.

Just one more thing to put rotten icing on a stinking fish of a cake: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...005904140.html Itzik Basman

Quoting piscivorous: ...And yes there is some artificial forcing of the narrative to fit into the scientific doctrine of Darwinism but your use of use of emotionalism "...what genius and achievment the world has been deprived of..." is also somewhat of of a contrived argument.

Yeah maybe: but there is a disanalogy between my overegging the pudding of Israeli achievement and your reasoning backwards. My hyperbole has no impact on my argument. Your "artificial forcing" strikes a blow at the very foundation of your claim. Itzik basman

Quoting basman: Just one more thing to put rotten icing on a stinking fish of a cake:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...005904140.html

Itzik Basman

Yeah, those Palestinians are the WORST! Israel sure will hate having to share a state with them! Tick tock, tick tock.

Quoting claymisher: Yeah, those Palestinians are the WORST! Israel sure will hate having to share a state with them! Tick tock, tick tock.

Better idea than imitating a clock, deal with the reality the piece points to, Claymisher. Itzik Basman

Quoting basman: Better idea than imitating a clock, deal with the reality the piece points to, Claymisher.

Itzik Basman

It's two state, one state, or apartheid. If you really want a two-state you should start thinking about how yer going to make peace with those perfidious Palestinians. Or just make them citizens.

From Jewish Voice for Peace:

On Thursday, August 20 the LA Times published an op-ed in which Ben Gurion University Professor Neve Gordon, a prominent political scientist and long-time peace activist, wrote that the question that kept him up at night, both as a parent and as an Israeli citizen, was how to ensure that his two children as well as the children of his Palestinian neighbors do not grow up in an apartheid regime. His pained conclusion is that the only strategy left is "massive international pressure" in the form of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS). He therefore endorses the Palestinian BDS campaign proposed by a wide swath of Palestinian civil society.

Following the publication of the article there has been a vehement and aggressive attack against Gordon in Israel that calls into serious question Israel's committment to academic freedom and the democratic right to free speech....

...Several Knesset members from the right called upon ...the Minister of Education to sack Neve Gordon, while Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar called the article "repugnant and deplorable." In the thousands of talkbacks generated by articles in Israel, hundreds of angry

Quoting claymisher: It's two state, one state, or apartheid. If you really want a two-state you should start thinking about how yer going to make peace with those perfidious Palestinians. Or just make them citizens.

Israel does not and can not resemble Apartheid. 1. Israel is completely within it’s rights to control the West Bank. Any land captured in a defensive war is allowed to be held until the end of hostilities. Since Jordan and the Palestinians attacked Israel in 1967 without provocation the land is legally controlled by Israel until there is a peace agreement with the Palestinians. 2. While the settlements are a clear impediment to peace and I believe anything not close to the green line should be removed, building them are not illegal. Practical arguments are not the same as legal arguments. Palestinian have no legal right to any land in the west bank that isn't specifically owned by individuals (if there is, then those settlements should be removed) as there has never been a Palestinian state that "owns" the empty land in the west bank and the last state the land was a part of (Jordan) has

In the thousands of talkbacks generated by articles in Israel, hundreds of angry readers have called Gordon a traitor, a virus, cancerous, and have threatened to expel him from Israel and some have even called for his execution.

Gordon has been saying these things in Israel for years. Has he been fired? No. Are people allowed to exercise their free speech and call him names. Of course. Gordon is allowed to say his horrible things and people are allowed to respond with horrible name calling. That is the whole point of free speech.

I won't take the time to refute this string of cliches and specious arguments. Suffice to say that none of this narrative is bought by anyone outside of right wing Israel. The idea that the Occupation, Settlements and Apartheid Rule regime are legal (much less moral!) is subscribed to by no other nation in the world besides Israel itself, and even there it is disputed by about half the Jewish population. As for the demographic "bomb," only time will tell who has the right interpretation. Your, however, is certainly at odds with right-wing Israeli former PM Ehud Olmert who warned that if Israel doesn't achieve a two-state resolution of the conflict, it will end up Apartheid:

"The day will come when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights," Olmert told Haaretz. "As soon as that happens, the state of Israel is finished."

Fine. Don't call it apartheid. Call it isrartheid if you want. It's still one people ruling over another.

Quoting gwlaw99: Israel does not and can not resemble Apartheid.

1. Israel is completely within it’s rights to control the West Bank. Any land captured in a defensive war is allowed to be held until the end of hostilities. Since Jordan and the Palestinians attacked Israel in 1967 without provocation the land is legally controlled by Israel until there is a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

2. While the settlements are a clear impediment to peace and I believe anything not close to the green line should be removed, building them are not illegal. Practical arguments are not the same as legal arguments. Palestinian have no legal right to any land in the west bank that isn't specifically owned by individuals (if there is, then those settlements should be removed) as there has never been a Palestinian state that "owns" the empty land in the west bank and the last state the land was a part of (Jordan) has disavowed it. With the Oslo accords, even the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat agreed that no final

And anyone with the most rudimentary understanding of the law of war knows that a country is allowed to occupy land in a defensive war until there is a peace treaty. The Palestinians could have a state rulling themselves tomorrow if they wanted to. They choose not to have one because they can't get all the land they want.

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International intergovernmental organizations such as the Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, every major organ of the United Nations, and the European Union have declared that the settlements are a serious violation of international law. Non-governmental organizations including Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch have also characterized the settlements as a violation of international law. In 1978, the Legal Adviser of the Department of State to the United States Congress concluded that "the establishment of the civilian settlements in those territories is inconsistent with international law."

Fourth Geneva Convention on Occupied Territories and treatment of civilians under occupations.

Quoting gwlaw99:
The Palestinians could have a state rulling themselves tomorrow if they wanted to. They choose not to have one because they can't get all the land they want.

I don't know if that's true. But I am sure Israel could stop occupying if it wanted to. It should.

The Palestinians could have a state rulling themselves tomorrow if they wanted to.

A basically empty and misleading assertion. It's silly to say that if Israel could dictate the terms unilaterally there could be a Palestinian state. Maybe there could be such a Bantustan-type pseudo-state, but why would anyone want it? Palestinians want a life in addition to a flag/state. The state has to be viable and free. But the whole discussion may be moot. To paraphrase the Bush regime, the two-state solution is increasingly "quaint," -- a fossil, a diplomatic anachronism. It's not going to happen. Obama and the rest of the West are foolish to go down the failed Carter and Clinton path. Certainly, Obama should not get invested in a 2-state solution. He will only be played by the Israelis, if he does. The emerging paradigm is one state. I could be wrong. But that's my read on the conflict after following it for half a century.

Quoting Wonderment: A basically empty and misleading assertion.

It's silly to say that if Israel could dictate the terms unilaterally there could be a Palestinian state. Maybe there could be such a Bantustan-type pseudo-state, but why would anyone want it?

Palestinians want a life in addition to a flag/state. The state has to be viable and free.

But the whole discussion may be moot. To paraphrase the Bush regime, the two-state solution is increasingly "quaint," -- a fossil, a diplomatic anachronism. It's not going to happen.

Obama and the rest of the West are foolish to go down the failed Carter and Clinton path. Certainly, Obama should not get invested in a 2-state solution. He will only be played by the Israelis, if he does.

The emerging paradigm is one state.

I could be wrong. But that's my read on the conflict after following it for half a century.

My point is not to say that the Palestians should concede everything, but to show that the issue is what each side will compromise to and has nothing to do with the Israelis stopping the Palestinians from governing themselves if that was more important to them than

I wonder if you take into account all factors.

Handwriting on wall.