Yes, the President does dance like a butterfly but where is his sting?

Quoting bjkeefe: ... but where is John McWhorter?...

Don't you recall? He was hung out to dry by the funny, charming, excuse-making Dear Leader Bob.

Bringeth John back.

Bring McWhorter back! Fire the staffers!

What happened to General McCrystal? Spencer Ackerman -with musical interlude - opines: Gates At The Gates And, a freebie these two missed:

AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask, back then to today—at the time, your colleagues at the RAND Corporation, people you valued and trusted, wouldn’t even go near you, called you at traitor, a number of them. And end with today, which is, what you think should be done today.

DANIEL ELLSBERG: I look at this film, and I watch the bombs falling, and all I can see in my mind are the bombs, the same bombs, falling over Afghanistan, or Vietnamistan, and Iraq right now. And we’re really facing, at this moment, a crisis of decision that’s just like the one that’s in the film, which I failed at the time, where the President is doing something that I feel will be a disaster, and I kept my mouth shut about it, the change from 70,000 men in the spring of ’65 to an open-ended commitment, starting with another 50,000, which I knew was on the way to hundreds of thousands. I didn’t tell about that, and nor did anyone else. There was a lot of dissent in the administration about that, but we were overruled. We saluted Clark Clifford, Vice President Humphrey. Again, we have a vice president who apparently is against

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...=telegraph2009

Happy Days pivoted around the friendship between two very different American teenagers, Richie Cunningham and Fonzie Fonzarelli.

Richie was clean-cut, wholesome, an absolute goody-goody, and everybody loved him. Fonzie, especially in the early series, was a tough nut. Greased-back hair, always astride his outlaw motorbike, decked out in Marlon Brando T-shirt, Fonzie inspired fear and envy in men, and swoons among the gals.

Everyone was frightened of Fonzie. He could banish bad guys with a look. In one episode, Fonzie tried to teach Richie his style. Richie practised the grimaces, the flexes, the stares, but alas the bad guys were not impressed and certainly not deterred.

In the midst of a desperate scrape, Richie turned to Fonzie imploringly and asked: Why are my deadly looks, threatening flexes and strategic grimaces having no effect?

Oh yeah, Fonzie replied, I forgot to tell you. For all that to work, once in your life you have to have hit someone. You cannot imagine a deeper strategic insight.

At some point, Obama is going to have to do something seriously unpleasant to someone.

"Fonzie" Fonzarelli? His given name was Arthur. The President dumped on Kanye West! And that cop! What about that fly he smashed?

Even Obama admitted that the bulk of the Tea Party and Health Care debates is about politics. Otherwise millions of people who voted for him did not realize at the time that he was black. Using Jimmy Carter's clownish logic is to make Carter himself anti-semitic every time he criticizes Israel (we won't really go into Carter's own racist past regarding the preservation of white neighborhoods). Does anyone doubt that if Obama did an about face on his campaign promises (as he has) but instead took up the cause of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, there would be just as many people in Washington protesting against an 'Uncle Tom". Dayo is completely disingenuous about saying that parents were protesting Obama's school speech because he advocated staying in school and studying. What they were against was the whiff of a cult of personality and indoctrination by the study plan that was withdrawn and which had students writing letters to themselves about how they could help the president. Why do none of those criticizing the parents mention the lesson plan????? Video

More and more people are coming to the realization that Obamacare has not much to do with quality health care and everything to do with controlling more and more of the taxpayer dollar to further political power gains.

Are you criticizing the Baucus bill from the left? Do you support Wyden-Bennett? Or, are you trashing any reform?

I think I recall Bill Cosby appearing on the Tony Brown PBS show during the Tawana Brawley fiasco and sounding like he sympathized with the Sharpton point of view. Unless I remember that incorrectly. I remember at the time thinking that his politics on that situation was kind of radically rash and maybe impulsively ill-considered.
But he's a genius and I think he has a lot of wisdom and good values about life. And he has made a great contribution to the struggle to overcome racism.

Glen asks at one point with reference to Afghanistan: Is Obama capable of "standing athwart" history and digging American foreign policy out of another quagmire of its own making? Would someone like to make a bet with me? Preferably in euros because the dollar keeps losing value.

Quoting Markos: I think I recall Bill Cosby appearing on the Tony Brown PBS show during the Tawana Brawley fiasco and sounding like he sympathized with the Sharpton point of view. Unless I remember that incorrectly. I remember at the time thinking that his politics on that situation was kind of radically rash and maybe impulsively ill-considered.
But he's a genius and I think he has a lot of wisdom and good values about life. And he has made a great contribution to the struggle to overcome racism.

Was that before or after it had become clear that the incident was a hoax?

Quoting Baltimoron: What about that fly he smashed?

LOL!

[quote=mvantony;131229]Bob? Bob? How about getting someone on BhTV who still dreams of "Greater Israel" to counterbalance Glenn? (His admission that he once enjoyed good classical music in Jerusalem isn't enough.)[quote] That's a rather Wagnerian wish.

from the awesome Steve Sailer http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/09/o...s-from-my.html a post on Christopher Andersen's book on the president of democrat America. "... In the end, Ayers's contribution to Barack's Dreams from My Father would be significant -- so much so that the book's language, oddly specific references, literary devices, and themes would bear a jarring similarity to Ayers's own writings. ..." Obama would not be having half the problems he is having now if he had run an honest campaign. Many of his ideas, plans and past associations were not presented to the public with the prominence with which he has been governing.

There are some areas where I could agree with Glenn, but "masculinity, virility of Obama"? LOL. Freudian fears? Glenn you are dreaming, do you have masculinity issues? Obama was elected by women because he is physically non-threatening, kind of a different formulation of Oprah. Dayo is more masculine than Obama. Freud is truly the last intellectual refuge for liberal scoundrels. Glenn is turning into Woody Allen.
Furthermore: what is the relationship between trial lawyers, the Democratic Party and Healthcare? Is it useful to know that the Democratic senator, presidential candidate and vice presidential candidate John Edwards (okay, Obama is more masculine than him) made his fortune and his political chops by suing obstetricians so that hospitals would do 5x as many caesareans than necessary?

Vapid mismatch. Itzik Basman

Quoting DenvilleSteve: from the awesome Steve Sailer http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/09/o...s-from-my.html a post on Christopher Andersen's book on the president of democrat America.

"... In the end, Ayers's contribution to Barack's Dreams from My Father would be significant -- so much so that the book's language, oddly specific references, literary devices, and themes would bear a jarring similarity to Ayers's own writings. ..."

Obama would not be having half the problems he is having now if he had run an honest campaign. Many of his ideas, plans and past associations were not presented to the public with the prominence with which he has been governing.

I don't see what your last paragraph has to do with the first two. Even if it true that Ayers gave Obama editorial advice, that isn't exactly a punishable crime. It isn't even a very interesting misdemeanor. Very few politicians know how to write or even have the time to write. They rely on ghost writers. Besides, I am very suspicious of the sentence you quote ("....literary devices, themes would bear a jarring similarity to Ayer's own writings...." What the hell does that mean?) Are you suggesting that because Obama asked an English professor

Quoting Francoamerican: I don't see what your last paragraph has to do with the first two. Even if it true that Ayers gave Obama editorial advice, that isn't exactly a punishable crime. It isn't even a very interesting misdemeanor. Very few politicians know how to write or even have the time to write. They rely on ghost writers. Besides, I am very suspicious of the sentence you quote ("....literary devices, themes would bear a jarring similarity to Ayer's own writings...." What the hell does that mean?)

Are you suggesting that because Obama asked an English professor (or education professor) to edit his autobiography, he is guilty of concealing something from the American public?

Balderdash!

In the campaign Obama said he basically knew Ayers from the neighborhood. Now, it looks like they worked together to the extent that Ayers wrote the Obama book from Obama's notes and other raw material. He was palling around with terrorists. I agree, I did not write the post very well. What I am trying to say is that if Obama had been more honest with the public during the campaign, he still would have won the election, and people would have less justification to

Quoting mvantony: Bob? Bob? How about getting someone on BhTV who still dreams of "Greater Israel" to counterbalance Glenn?

I'd settle for the usual Israel hawks to stop playing games and just come out and admit they want to expel Palestinians from "Greater Israel."

Cosby: brain DAMAGE! It's brain DAMAGE!

Quoting Dayo: "The UN is groovy. Lula da Silva, Obama, Quadaffi, Israel's mad, Ahmadinejad, and Sudan". In her mind all these names should be parsed together, and I suppose she's correct because this is what the UN is all about. I used to think liberals had jumped the shark with Obama because his marxism is so obvious, but sometimes I'm not sure. Buy gold, and get a government job.

Quoting Salt: ... I used to think liberals had jumped the shark with Obama because his marxism is so obvious, but sometimes I'm not sure...

Please, by all means, school us! Show me the Marxism!

Jimmy Carter surely should know what he's talking about when he discusses racism. When he returned to Plains from the Navy he joined a group dedicated to opposing Brown vs. Board of Education. A new black school was planned so that they could maintain the 'separate but equal' fiction. Unfortunately for them the new school was to be sited near the white school. This really set Carter off because black and white children would have to use some of the same streets on the way to school. Carter's role in this is discussed, briefly, in Laughlin McDonald's book, "A Voting Rights Odyssey". Carter ran a racist campaign for governor. On of his charges was that his opponent had failed to be properly respectful of George Wallace. He distributed pictures of his opponent with blacks.

Quoting tickknob: Jimmy Carter surely should know what he's talking about when he discusses racism. When he returned to Plains from the Navy he joined a group dedicated to opposing Brown vs. Board of Education. A new black school was planned so that they could maintain the 'separate but equal' fiction. Unfortunately for them the new school was to be sited near the white school. This really set Carter off because black and white children would have to use some of the same streets on the way to school. Carter's role in this is discussed, briefly, in Laughlin McDonald's book, "A Voting Rights Odyssey".

Carter ran a racist campaign for governor. On of his charges was that his opponent had failed to be properly respectful of George Wallace. He distributed pictures of his opponent with blacks.

What racist thing has Carter been responsible since then? From Wikipedia:

Carter declared in his inaugural speech that the time of racial segregation was over, and that racial discrimination had no place in the future of the state. He was the first statewide office holder in the Deep South to say this in public.[citation needed] Afterwards, Carter appointed many

Quoting AEM: Please, by all means, school us! Show me the Marxism! AEM, how could you fail to notice. Like all libs, you don't fail to notice, you only dismiss all the evidence as paranoid fantasy. He has always surrounded himself with Marxists. In his own words, he said he chose his friends that way at university. COMMUN-ity organizing. What is that? ACORN, SEIU, Van Jones, Bill Ayers. "Working behind enemy lines" in an actual private sector job. Embracing Chavez. What more evidence do you need? Whatever it is, you'll soon get it because the list gets longer every week. Perhaps he hasn't jumped the shark. Perhaps he can force his agenda down America's throat. You libs will be living with the consequences, not me. Do your worst.

Quoting Salt: Quoting AEM: Please, by all means, school us! Show me the Marxism!

AEM, how could you fail to notice. Like all libs, you don't fail to notice, you only dismiss all the evidence as paranoid fantasy. He has always surrounded himself with Marxists. In his own words, he said he chose his friends that way at university. COMMUN-ity organizing. What is that? ACORN, SEIU, Van Jones, Bill Ayers. "Working behind enemy lines" in an actual private sector job. Embracing Chavez. What more evidence do you need? Whatever it is, you'll soon get it because the list gets longer every week. Perhaps he hasn't jumped the shark. Perhaps he can force his agenda down America's throat. You libs will be living with the consequences, not me. Do your worst.

All that anger. But, you don't really offer anything on which to engage. I doubt you know the difference between a "Marxist" (whatever that means) and somebody to the left of where you stand (not a trivial set.) I'm curious, do you live in a COMMUN-ity? What conclusions should we draw from your answer?

What racist thing has Carter been responsible since then? Get real. The man was upset because blacks and whites would be using the same streets. I grew up in a small town not far from Plains and there were plenty of racist but I never heard of anybody objecting to the races using the same streets. That's rabid, that's foaming at the mouth rabid.

Quoting tickknob: What racist thing has Carter been responsible since then?

Get real. The man was upset because blacks and whites would be using the same streets. I grew up in a small town not far from Plains and there were plenty of racist but I never heard of anybody objecting to the races using the same streets. That's rabid, that's foaming at the mouth rabid.

You forgot to answer the question.

Quoting AEM:All that anger. But, you don't really offer anything on which to engage. I doubt you know the difference between a "Marxist" (whatever that means) and somebody to the left of where you stand (not a trivial set.)
I'm curious, do you live in a COMMUN-ity? What conclusions should we draw from your answer? Angry, why should I be angry? Because my country got hoodwinked into handing itself over to a bunch of radicals who want to turn it into Brazil? I suppose every empire has to die of something. Funnily enough, I just met a Brazilian couple who emigrated because they couldn't stand the corruption and crime anymore. If you want to tell me the ACORNs and SEIUs and Weathermen aren't communists, fine. What are they? Anarchists? It doesn't matter. It all ends up in the same place, totalitarianism. Who do you prefer Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Chavez. It's the same. It starts out as redistribution and nanny state and ends up in a gulag. Enjoy!

Quoting Salt: Quoting AEM:All that anger. But, you don't really offer anything on which to engage. I doubt you know the difference between a "Marxist" (whatever that means) and somebody to the left of where you stand (not a trivial set.)
I'm curious, do you live in a COMMUN-ity? What conclusions should we draw from your answer?

Angry, why should I be angry? Because my country got hoodwinked into handing itself over to a bunch of radicals who want to turn it into Brazil? I suppose every empire has to die of something. Funnily enough, I just met a Brazilian couple who emigrated because they couldn't stand the corruption and crime anymore. If you want to tell me the ACORNs and SEIUs and Weathermen aren't communists, fine. What are they? Anarchists? It doesn't matter. It all ends up in the same place, totalitarianism. Who do you prefer Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Chavez. It's the same. It starts out as redistribution and nanny state and ends up in a gulag. Enjoy!

I've always been enamored of Constitutional Republics. You know, rule of law, and that messy voting process by which people I might not like, or of whom I might not approve, get elected and occupy office? Sorry it didn't work out for you.

Quoting Salt: If you want to tell me the ACORNs and SEIUs and Weathermen aren't ...

I want to tell you that your equating of an association of community organizers, a labor union, and a forty-year-dead (and wholly ineffective while they were in existence) group of wannabe college kid revolutionaries makes me roll on the floor with laughter. Wingnut hysteria. Nothing like it.

same whining as the last thread - and same lack of credibility.

Quoting popcorn_karate: same whining as the last thread - and same lack of credibility.

I don't understand what you mean about credibility here. You might disagree with his analysis; but it's a perfectly reasonable complaint, given where he's coming from.

Quoting BJ: I want to tell you that your equating of an association of community organizers, a labor union, and a forty-year-dead (and wholly ineffective while they were in existence) group of wannabe college kid revolutionaries makes me roll on the floor with laughter Somehow, I doubt it takes much to get you to roll on the floor with laughter. Why are images of MacKenzie Phillips' dad flashing into my head? The Weathermen were unsuccessful because their bombs only killed a few policemen? Is that it? ACORN and SEIU are forty-year-dead? Time to pop a few ritalin, BJ. In summary, PERLSTEIN'S LAW. Psych!

Quoting AEM: I've always been enamored of Constitutional Republics. You know, rule of law, and that messy voting process by which people I might not like, or of whom I might not approve, get elected and occupy office? Sorry it didn't work out for you. Good for you AEM. Are you also enamored of taxpayer money used to fund voter fraud and tax fraud? Are you enamored of Obama recruiting the NEA to get Hollywood and other artists to do Obama-worship films and catchy little tunes taught in schools? Are you enamored of "diversity czars" at the FCC who publicly speak about the importance of harnessing broadcasting to support the revolution in Venezuela and the USA? Are you in love with Van Jones and his plans to outlaw "white polluters who are poisoning people of color"? Don't you just love Van's plan to restructure the entire economy on the lines of "social justice"? If you are, good for you. You're no different from the millions of other suckers duped by Obama.

Quoting Salt: Quoting AEM: I've always been enamored of Constitutional Republics. You know, rule of law, and that messy voting process by which people I might not like, or of whom I might not approve, get elected and occupy office? Sorry it didn't work out for you.

Good for you AEM. Are you also enamored of taxpayer money used to fund voter fraud and tax fraud? Are you enamored of Obama recruiting the NEA to get Hollywood and other artists to do Obama-worship films and catchy little tunes taught in schools? Are you enamored of "diversity czars" at the FCC who publicly speak about the importance of harnessing broadcasting to support the revolution in Venezuela and the USA? Are you in love with Van Jones and his plans to outlaw "white polluters who are poisoning people of color"? Don't you just love Van's plan to restructure the entire economy on the lines of "social justice"? If you are, good for you. You're no different from the millions of other suckers duped by Obama.

How could I possibly counter such an eloquent, logically forceful argument?

Quoting Lame: How could I possibly counter such an eloquent, logically forceful argument? Obviously you can't, because they are assertions that happen to be true. If they weren't true you could counter them. On second thought, even though they are true you could try to counter them (ask BJ and Flake-Karate how to do this), but it probably won't work.

Quoting Salt: Quoting Lame: How could I possibly counter such an eloquent, logically forceful argument?

Obviously you can't, because they are assertions that happen to be true. If they weren't true you could try to counter them (ask BJ how to do this), but it probably wouldn't work.

Dude, I've heard this rant before, and better said. Declaring victory without earning it is a bad habit.

There's also Netanyahu's interview with Charlie Rose (.wmv file) One quibble with the UN address: does Bibi really want to equate the entire iranian state with the Nazis? Ahmadi-nejad and his allies and abettors are repugnant, but the Islamic Republic is on paper an improvement on the Shahs' rule. With sane Iranians who aren't street thugs and corrupt sadists perhaps there's something there.

Quoting Baltimoron: ... but the Islamic Republic is on paper an improvement on the Shahs' rule...

I guess that is really a matter of perspective.The names have changed the results remain about the same.

Quoting Salt: Quoting BJ: I want to tell you that your equating of an association of community organizers, a labor union, and a forty-year-dead (and wholly ineffective while they were in existence) group of wannabe college kid revolutionaries makes me roll on the floor with laughter

Somehow, I doubt it takes much to get you to roll on the floor with laughter. Why are images of MacKenzie Phillips' dad flashing into my head? The Weathermen were unsuccessful because their bombs only killed a few policemen? Is that it? ACORN and SEIU are forty-year-dead? Time to pop a few ritalin, BJ. In summary, PERLSTEIN'S LAW. Psych!

Wow. Thanks for this post -- next time someone asks me what I mean when I talk about wingnuts using the kitchen sink tactic, I'll have a canonical example to point to. I mean, seriously, Mackenzie Phillips's father? That has what to do with what? Never mind, I'm sure you're frantically eager to pound your keyboard with an explanation of how Immoral Hollywood!!!1! is connected to the ACORN!!!1!-SEIU!!!-MARXIST!!!1!-OBAMA!!!1! Axis. You might also try taking a breath and reading before typing next time. I did not say ACORN and SEIU are forty-year-dead. Also, your invocation of Perlstein's Law makes even less sense than the rest of your random fumings. Look it up. And

Quoting Salt: There are some areas where I could agree with Glenn, but "masculinity, virility of Obama"? LOL. Freudian fears? Glenn you are dreaming, do you have masculinity issues? Obama was elected by women because he is physically non-threatening, kind of a different formulation of Oprah. Dayo is more masculine than Obama. Freud is truly the last intellectual refuge for liberal scoundrels. Glenn is turning into Woody Allen.
Furthermore: what is the relationship between trial lawyers, the Democratic Party and Healthcare? Is it useful to know that the Democratic senator, presidential candidate and vice presidential candidate John Edwards (okay, Obama is more masculine than him) made his fortune and his political chops by suing obstetricians so that hospitals would do 5x as many caesareans than necessary?

Hilarious! I was also wondering about Glenn's reference to the Black Chicago that spwaned Obama. Hyde Park is hardly Black Chicago. And didn't he grow up with his white grandparents in Hawaii?

Quoting AemJeff: All that anger. But, you don't really offer anything on which to engage. I doubt you know the difference between a "Marxist" (whatever that means) and somebody to the left of where you stand (not a trivial set.)

I'm curious, do you live in a COMMUN-ity? What conclusions should we draw from your answer?

Hmmmm...apparently Marxism has no definition, but you and so many others insist that racism has one which is self evident.

Quoting badhatharry: I was also wondering about Glenn's reference to the Black Chicago that spwaned Obama. Hyde Park is hardly Black Chicago. And didn't he grow up with his white grandparents in Hawaii?

You're absolutely right. This clearly explains why conservatives and Republicans spent virtually no time at all worrying about Trinity United Church of Christ or its pastor emeritus, and have continued to pooh-pooh any concerns that President Obama might have secret radical connections with groups bent on overthrowing "Real" America. Excellent observation, as always, bhh.

Quoting badhatharry: Hmmmm...apparently Marxism has no definition, but you and so many others insist that racism has one which is self evident.

Harry, that feels like a non-sequitur to me. I'll give you the same chance Salt had to back up his words. Show me the Marxism. I've just spent hundreds of words on the topic of racism in another thread. If my view hasn't been made clear there , then I'm not sure what else there is to say. But let me ask you: is this:
racist? (source) I used it as an example in the thread I linked.

BJ: Also, your invocation of Perlstein's Law makes even less sense than the rest of your random fumings. Sorry to have to clarify this for you BJ, but at this point of the argument (after you've made some comment about suffering some type of fit on the carpet, and I make the comment that for you and your ilk your mental imbalance is only outweighed by your moral dissolution), you always bring up PERLSTEIN'S LAW, like it's the most original and hilarious thing anyone has ever written. Secondly, I'll admit MacKenzie Phillips' dad is a stretch, let's stick with Woody Allen as a good example of liberal self-debasement and hypocrisy.

Quoting Salt: BJ: Also, your invocation of Perlstein's Law makes even less sense than the rest of your random fumings.

Sorry to have to clarify this for you BJ, but at this point of the argument (after you've made some comment about suffering some type of fit on the carpet, and I make the comment that for you and your ilk your mental imbalance is only outweighed by your moral dissolution), you always bring up PERLSTEIN'S LAW, like it's the most original and hilarious thing anyone has ever written. Secondly, I'll admit MacKenzie Phillips' dad is a stretch, let's stick with Woody Allen as a good example of liberal self-debasement and hypocrisy.

"Moral dissolution?" This post was beginning to seem almost coherent, at least in comparison to the last half-dozen or so. What possible point is there to this sort of random, meaningless shit?

Quoting AemJeff: Harry, that feels like a non-sequitur to me. I'll give you the same chance Salt had to back up his words. Show me the Marxism. I've just spent hundreds of words on the topic of racism in another thread. If my view hasn't been made clear there , then I'm not sure what else there is to say. But let me ask you: is this:
racist? (source) I used it as an example in the thread I linked.

OK, so here's my response. Your little cartoon example is creepy bad taste and stupidity. The reason I think you don't want to give me a simple definition, rather than pages of examples of what you label right wing idiocy is because you know that it would entail defining racism as acting in some substantial way which takes race into primary consideration rather than the individual regardless of race. That would be, IMHO, a valid definition racism. To which I would reply that legislation like affirmative action is racism. But you wouldn't like that nor would you agree. Racism always has to be performed by white people in your view. If it's racism which is designed to lift

Quoting AEM: is this racist? Gosh, was it printed by some "typical white person" or a "white polluter/poisoner" in AmeriKKKA? Did James O'Keefe and Hanna Giles do this? Was it that beer-guzzling cop from Cambridge? Alert Skip Gates and the diversity czar at the FCC!

Quoting bjkeefe: You're absolutely right. This clearly explains why conservatives and Republicans spent virtually no time at all worrying about Trinity United Church of Christ or its pastor emeritus, and have continued to pooh-pooh any concerns that President Obama might have secret radical connections with groups bent on overthrowing "Real" America.

Excellent observation, as always, bhh.

Against any type of sanity or sense of self preservation, I will answer your comment. I happen to have spent my first 21 years in the windy city. Actually in the city, not in some suburb close to it. So I think when I say that Hyde Park is not black Chicago, I can speak with some authority. If what Loury was referring to as black Chicago was Hyde Park, well that's news to me and I guess I missed the subtle nature of the reference. Maybe he should call it neo-black Chicago. As far as Reverend Wright goes, I couldn't care less about what he said or didn't say. Growing up black in America is a hard row to hoe and if someone's pissed off about their life, well they're free to complain all they want. But if you do it in a pulpit and

Quoting Salt: Angry, why should I be angry? Because my country got hoodwinked into handing itself over to a bunch of radicals who want to turn it into Brazil?

The rightwingers on this site seem to alternative between accusations like this and the accusation that Obama is basically identical to Bush. Maybe you all just need to hash this out before getting into it with those of us in the middle. (For the record, it seems to me that the latter claim is a lot less insane.)

Quoting Salt: BJ: Also, your invocation of Perlstein's Law makes even less sense than the rest of your random fumings.

Sorry to have to clarify this for you BJ, but at this point of the argument (after you've made some comment about suffering some type of fit on the carpet, ...

"Suffering some type of fit on the carpet?" I have long said that wingnuts have no sense of humor, but I didn't think the concept of laughter was completely alien to you. Sorry to hear that.

Quoting Salt: ... and I make the comment that for you and your ilk your mental imbalance is only outweighed by your moral dissolution), you always bring up PERLSTEIN'S LAW, like it's the most original and hilarious thing anyone has ever written.

"Always?" I presume it will be easy for you, then, to give links to ten posts where I "bring it up." Or are you using #michellemalkinmath again?

Secondly, I'll admit MacKenzie Phillips' dad is a stretch, let's stick with Woody Allen as a good example of liberal self-debasement and hypocrisy.

I still fail to see what this has to do with the ACORN!!!1!-SEIU!!!-MARXIST!!!1!-OBAMA!!!1! Axis. But since you love to make things clearer for me, perhaps it will help

Quoting badhatharry: OK, so here's my response. Your little cartoon example is creepy bad taste and stupidity. The reason I think you don't want to give me a simple definition, rather than pages of examples of what you label right wing idiocy is because you know that it would entail defining racism as acting in some substantial way which takes race into primary consideration rather than the individual regardless of race. That would be, IMHO, a valid definition racism.

To which I would reply that legislation like affirmative action is racism.

But you wouldn't like that nor would you agree. Racism always has to be performed by white people in your view. If it's racism which is designed to lift up some particularly disadvantaged (in someone's opinion) race, well, shit, that ain't racism! That's just being nice!

Marxism is the philosophy that society needs to be radically changed and power must be wrested from the rich and entitled. The proceeds from that wresting must then be redistributed equally to the people by the government, now led by benevolent members of the commons. Marxists feel eminently qualified to perform this service to humanity because they

Quoting Salt: Quoting AEM: is this racist?

Gosh, was it printed by some "typical white person" or a "white polluter/poisoner" in AmeriKKKA?

Yes. And here is another one of your people.

Quoting Stephanie: Maybe you all just need to hash this out before getting into it with those of us in the middle. What a forceful post! Stephanie, maybe you better get back to Oprah so you can make your mind up about what you believe.

Quoting Salt: Quoting AEM: is this racist?

Gosh, was it printed by some "typical white person" or a "white polluter/poisoner" in AmeriKKKA? Did James O'Keefe and Hanna Giles do this? Was it that beer-guzzling cop from Cambridge? Alert Skip Gates and the diversity czar at the FCC!

Golly gee, Salt. You're not worth the time and effort it takes to post.

Quoting AEM: What possible point is there to this sort of random, meaningless shit? Because it's impossible to disprove and fun! Just like screaming: "HALLIBURTON, TORTURE, USURPATION OF POWER, FASCISM, GENOCIDE". The only difference is the stuff I'm harping about is actually, you know, true. I'm going to rub your nose in it every chance I get and the list is endless and growing! You people can't stand it because you accuse conservatives of robbing your freedom of speech, which never happened, but you want to silence conservatives. It ticks me off. Look out, here comes another one: ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times = TOAST.

Quoting badhatharry: Against any type of sanity or sense of self preservation, I will answer your comment. [...]

You must be insane if you think the rest of what you randomly typed out was any sort of "answer." Here, let me shorter it for you:

Imagine Glenn Loury was thinking something he didn't say. Then it inevitably follows that all racism is all Obama's fault.

Quoting BJ: I still fail to see what this has to do with the ACORN!!!1!-SEIU!!!-MARXIST!!!1!-OBAMA!!!1! Axis. But since you love to make things clearer for me, perhaps it will help if we pick out a good example for your side. Shall we use Senator Larry Craig, Governor Mark Sanford, Senator David "Diapers" Vitter, US Representative Mark Foley, State Representative Bob Allen, President Richard M. Nixon, or Governor Sarah Palin? Or de facto head of the Republican Party and honorary member of the US House of Representatives Rush Limbaugh? Or someone else? Or someone else? Or someone else? No, let's just get down on our knees and thank the lord for the late Michael Jackson's amazing gift of talent. My point is that unlike liberals, conservatives don't try to defend degenerates. Secondly, Rush and Sarah don't belong in that group. Sarah may not be the most educated person of all time, but she never said "I can see Russia" or "I've visited all 57 states (Obama)", and she hasn't withheld her school records (Obama). She doesn't alternate oratorical styles between MLK and Jeremiah Wright, either.

Quoting AemJeff: You haven't defined "Marxism," you've invented a straw-man defined by your own personal bugaboos and assigned to it a convenient label. "Marxism" is a particular economic philosophy, and the definition is found in the text of Marx's works.

Really? I didn't see the need to quote Das Capital directly, but rather summarized the ideas therein (pretty accurately, IMHO).
[/quote] Racism is more complicated than the equivalent straw-argument you'd like to have to argue against in this debate. The context-free, all-sides-are-equivalent version of it, that you obviously prefer, makes all kinds of false assumptions about what's actually true abut the world. White people do not, by definition, suffer the effects of racism in this society. (That's not the same thing as saying that no white person has ever suffered those effects.) But white people have garnered the benefits of the gross inequities caused by the reality of racism as practiced in this country over a 400 year period. Conservatives can scream "COLORBLIND SOCIETY!" all they want - but the effect of implementing the rules in the terms they prefer would be to continue to advantage the same group of people who have been so advantaged since

Quoting bjkeefe: You must be insane if you think the rest of what you randomly typed out was any sort of "answer."

Yep, it was. Never again

Quoting badhatharry: Really? I didn't see the need to quote Das Capital directly, but rather summarized the ideas therein (pretty accurately, IMHO).

Racism is more complicated than the equivalent straw-argument you'd like to have to argue against in this debate. The context-free, all-sides-are-equivalent version of it, that you obviously prefer, makes all kinds of false assumptions about what's actually true abut the world. White people do not, by definition, suffer the effects of racism in this society. (That's not the same thing as saying that no white person has ever suffered those effects.) But white people have garnered the benefits of the gross inequities caused by the reality of racism as practiced in this country over a 400 year period. Conservatives can scream "COLORBLIND SOCIETY!" all they want - but the effect of implementing the rules in the terms they prefer would be to continue to advantage the same group of people who have been so advantaged since the inception of this society.
And that would not be the effect that they claim to be seeking.

Believe me, I am aware of the inequities in life. However, there are those who just won't ever let things play

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

"conservatives don't defend degenerates" Really ? Perhaps you're right - a better formulation is that they embrace them - i.e. Rush, Glenn and this: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/conten...-too-crazy-gop I've been trying to figure out which of the Righties in this thread is exhibiting the most laughably outrageous examples of the unquiet desperation that infects "conservatism" these days. I think it's Salt, but I'm not sure. Overall, it's a rather large pile of tiresome horsecrap.

Quoting badhatharry: Marxism is the philosophy that society needs to be radically changed and power must be wrested from the rich and entitled. The proceeds from that wresting must then be redistributed equally to the people by the government, now led by benevolent members of the commons. Marxists feel eminently qualified to perform this service to humanity because they do, after all, know what is best.

This is a ridiculous summary of "Marxism." It is an even more ridiculous summary of the thought of Marx. Besides, Marxism as a system of thought is dead, long dead--- dead, I dare say, before you were born. So what exactly are you talking about? Apparently, you think that redistributionist policies that place unequal tax burdens on people according to their income, i.e. what Europeans call "social democracy" and what Americans call the welfare state, is Marxism. Nonsense. May I suggest that you read an encyclopedia article on social democracy and the welfare state, and then, if you really want to become knowledgeable, you can go on to read something about Marx.

Quoting badhatharry: Yep, it was. Never again

Would this be Round 2 of your self-pity party? Sorry, badhat, but you don't get to post whatever nonsense drifts through your mind and expect immunity from a response. I understand that in the conservative circles you appear to be getting your talking points from, coherence is no longer expected as long as the hatred of Obama is expressed vehemently enough, but I'm not going to let it stand unchallenged each and every time you regurgitate it.

Keep laughing losers. You want to waste your time deconstructing Marxism and talk about pathetic European social democracy? Maybe Obama is more intent on creating France in America, but it will wind up looking more like Brazil. Can't wait to see how that turns out. Both America and France had revolutions, but France's was alot more like Russia's. Americans fought to throw out a foreign government, not to redistribute the wealth. What happened to France after the revolution? It became a dictatorship that squandered its citizens and resources under Napoleon, then it became a doormat laughingstock. Washington turned down the opportunity to become a dictator. Until now, the USA has been different from Europe, and thankfully so. This is probably what prompted Obama to give the Queen a hug and an iPod filled with his speeches (so pompous).

Quoting Salt: Keep laughing losers. You want to waste your time deconstructing Marxism and talk about pathetic European social democracy? Maybe Obama is more intent on creating France in America, but it will wind up looking more like Brazil. Can't wait to see how that turns out. Both America and France had revolutions, but France's was alot more like Russia's. Americans fought to throw out a foreign government, not to redistribute the wealth. What happened to France after the revolution? It became a dictatorship that squandered its citizens and resources under Napoleon, then it became a doormat laughingstock. Washington turned down the opportunity to become a dictator. Until now, the USA has been different from Europe, and thankfully so. This is probably what prompted Obama to give the Queen a hug and an iPod filled with his speeches (so pompous).

That's right, getting health insurance for everyone is JUST LIKE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. I don't know what's worse, that'd you'd actually believe any of that or that you think it'd persuade anyone of anything. All these predictions about Obama and teh rode to socia1ism!!! are going to look really stupid after eight years of competent, moderate governance. Instead of waiting seven years

Dayo is beyond her years and speaks with such emotional maturity, it refreshing to hear some one so clear. As for Cosby: he's never been more than an entertainer who's success has come from emulating American White (non-threatening to whites) culture for large paydays. And he was in the right place at the right time (the advent of affirmative action) to gain big bucks. His theory for minorities is to do as white people do and you will succeed. It does not matter if you become an in-authentic person in the process, it's the bank balance that counts. If your bank account reaches a certain level then you've earned the right to be paternal and give life advice. His personal family dysfunction is hypocritical at best and is off-putting to me. As for our President, he's the man in the middle, genetically and intellectually and said he was going to "change the way we think", a job he's uniquely qualified to do.

Bill Cosby has been around longer than the phrase affirmative action. If one to co listen to his early albums (1963---) you would find the basis for much of his controversial political views, from the left's perspective, and his instance on personal responsibility as the driving force to change; not necessarily more government involvement.

Quoting claymisher: That's right, getting health insurance for everyone is JUST LIKE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION.

I don't know what's worse, that'd you'd actually believe any of that or that you think it'd persuade anyone of anything. All these predictions about Obama and teh rode to socia1ism!!! are going to look really stupid after eight years of competent, moderate governance. Instead of waiting seven years to tell you "I told you so" I'll just do it now: you're nuts.

History according to Salt reminds me a bit of a "tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Quoting Clay:All these predictions about Obama and teh rode to socia1ism!!! are going to look really stupid after eight years of competent, moderate governance. Instead of waiting seven years to tell you "I told you so" I'll just do it now: you're nuts. Competent, moderate governance. And death to the Nazi, racist teabaggers, right Nancy, Harry, Jimmy? Or were you talking about some other governance? Another question: how many world-class tech companies can you name from France? While you're thinking, I'll just type a few words: Google, Intel, Microsoft, Qualcomm, Intuit, Adobe, Yahoo, Ebay. That took 5 seconds. Okay, I just thought of a French one, Areva (courtesy of protectionism), Airbus (courtesy of protectionism). There is such a laughable lack of innovation on the continent. Germany? SAP, maybe Infineon if they're still around. Russia? Zero. UK? WPP and banks. It is no contest.

Quoting AemJeff: By every important metric, to within some reasonable error bar, the goods of this society - employment, political office holding, medical outcomes, mortality, general affluence, etc... - will be distributed proportionally. I'd say we've solved quite a bit in 40 years - that's not the same as declaring the problem solved. Four decades isn't that long, half a man's lifetime.

We don't agree on the strategies necessary to achieve the goal; we don't even necessarily agree on the terms or their definitions; but I think that we probably do believe in more or less the same goal. But, that's what democracy is about.

Proportionaly to what? The number of people in that given sector? So there will be the same percentage of blacks in high office as is in the black population? Will half of the plumbers or blue collar workers be women?
What if women don't want to be plumbers? What if blacks don't want to hold high office? Social engineering= Marxism (no matter what Prof. Franco American Chef Boyardee says) Good luck with all of this!

Quoting Salt: Quoting Clay:All these predictions about Obama and teh rode to socia1ism!!! are going to look really stupid after eight years of competent, moderate governance. Instead of waiting seven years to tell you "I told you so" I'll just do it now: you're nuts.

Competent, moderate governance. And death to the Nazi, racist teabaggers, right Nancy, Harry, Jimmy? Or were you talking about some other governance? Another question: how many world-class tech companies can you name from France? While you're thinking, I'll just type a few words: Google, Intel, Microsoft, Qualcomm, Intuit, Adobe, Yahoo, Ebay. That took 5 seconds. Okay, I just thought of a French one, Areva (courtesy of protectionism), Airbus (courtesy of protectionism). There is such a laughable lack of innovation on the continent. Germany? SAP, maybe Infineon if they're still around. Russia? Zero. UK? WPP and banks. It is no contest.

Could I ask why you brought up France in this context? Was it because of my reply to badhatharry's remark about Marxism? Did it upset you? And why do you think that your childish and incoherent rantings should be taken seriously by anyone with more than a highschool education? You clearly know little about history, little about France, little about economics, yet you persist in posting. Amazing.

Quoting badhatharry: Proportionaly to what? The number of people in that given sector?

So there will be the same percentage of blacks in high office as is in the black population? Will half of the plumbers or blue collar workers be women?
What if women don't want to be plumbers? What if blacks don't want to hold high office?

Social engineering= Marxism (no matter what Prof. Franco American Chef Boyardee says)

Good luck with all of this!

Social engineering = ubiquitous feature of societies since there were societies. You mean social engineering that you don't like. Which is the same as saying that your definition is circular. How many black senators are there compared to the proportion of blacks in the population? How about CEO's? What's the infant mortality rate for Hispanic children compared to whites? Show me statistics supporting your extraordinarily disingenuous hypothetical in regard to blacks wanting high office. That was beneath you. I hope.

Quoting badhatharry: Social engineering= Marxism (no matter what Prof. Franco American Chef Boyardee says)

Good luck with all of this!

One will need more than good luck to decrypt your inept attempts to think.

Quoting Franco: Could I ask why you brought up France in this context? Was it because of my reply to badhatharry's remark about Marxism? Did it upset you? And why do you think that your childish and incoherent rantings should be taken seriously by anyone with more than a highschool education? You clearly know little about history, little about France, little about economics, yet you persist in posting. Someone mentioned socialist democracy, that is what France is, isn't it, professor? I know one thing, judging by your pretensions I've made one hell of alot more money than you. You don't want to touch those corporate issues with a ten foot pole. You want to keep everything nice and academic and deconstructionist.

Quoting bjkeefe: Would this be Round 2 of your self-pity party?

Sorry, badhat, but you don't get to post whatever nonsense drifts through your mind and expect immunity from a response. I understand that in the conservative circles you appear to be getting your talking points from, coherence is no longer expected as long as the hatred of Obama is expressed vehemently enough, but I'm not going to let it stand unchallenged each and every time you regurgitate it.

I have no idea what you are talking about. My original comment had to do with Loury's statement that Obama came from black Chicago. Then you set me straight in that that he was referring to some sort of community which grew out of Reverend Wright's Trinity Church. Then you accused me, without any knowledge of me or my opinions, of being in line with those who have demonized Wright. Then I said I don't think Wright was wrong in what he said. In fact I acknowledge that he was justified, but perhaps unwise given the events that had ensued. It really doesn't matter what I say, does it Brendan? You will twist it and turn it so

Quoting Francoamerican: Could I ask why you brought up France in this context? Was it because of my reply to badhatharry's remark about Marxism? Did it upset you? And why do you think that your childish and incoherent rantings should be taken seriously by anyone with more than a highschool education? You clearly know little about history, little about France, little about economics, yet you persist in posting.

Amazing.

(Regarding the size of corporations: there's a whole bunch of moronic analysis that goes right out the window when you consider the size of the market. We'll hear a lot more about that in a couple years when the S&P Global 100 is dominated by Chinese and Indian firms.) That's right, we went from the French Revolution and dictatorship to bragging about America high-tech companies. It's all the same really. Universal health insurance, public schools, Obama, the Khmer Rouge, Marx, France, whatever. Sheesh. I am so bored by conservatives arguing this poorly that I'm this close to becoming a conservative myself. Anybody interested in that? You guys think I should join the other team? If we were on the playground we'd try to even out the lineups. Whaddya think?

Quoting Salt: Quoting Franco: Could I ask why you brought up France in this context? Was it because of my reply to badhatharry's remark about Marxism? Did it upset you? And why do you think that your childish and incoherent rantings should be taken seriously by anyone with more than a highschool education? You clearly know little about history, little about France, little about economics, yet you persist in posting.

Someone mentioned socialist democracy, that is what France is, isn't it, professor? I know one thing, judging by your pretensions I've made one hell of alot more money than you. You don't want to touch those corporate issues with a ten foot pole. You want to keep everything nice and academic and deconstructionist.

Congratulations! But how do you know that you have made more money than me? You presume too much, sir. But we already knew that your pretentions to knowledge were excessive. NB: It is social democracy, not socialist democracy. There is a difference, which even a man of your wealth should know.

Quoting Salt: Quoting Franco: Could I ask why you brought up France in this context? Was it because of my reply to badhatharry's remark about Marxism? Did it upset you? And why do you think that your childish and incoherent rantings should be taken seriously by anyone with more than a highschool education? You clearly know little about history, little about France, little about economics, yet you persist in posting.

Someone mentioned socialist democracy, that is what France is, isn't it, professor? I know one thing, judging by your pretensions I've made one hell of alot more money than you. You don't want to touch those corporate issues with a ten foot pole. You want to keep everything nice and academic and deconstructionist.

How much money do you think I've made? Do you think it makes me a better person than you?

Quoting Francoamerican: Congratulations! But how do you know that you have made more money than me? You presume too much, sir. But we already knew that your pretentions to knowledge were excessive.

NB: It is social democracy, not socialist democracy. There is a difference, which even a man of your wealth should know.

Don't get me started on social democracy vs. democratic socialism!

Quoting claymisher: [...] I am so bored by conservatives arguing this poorly that I'm this close to becoming a conservative myself. Anybody interested in that? You guys think I should join the other team? If we were on the playground we'd try to even out the lineups. Whaddya think?

I think you already drafted someone.

Quoting bjkeefe: I think you already drafted someone.

Did you answer that? I lose track of threads.

Quoting AemJeff: Social engineering = ubiquitous feature of societies since there were societies. You mean social engineering that you don't like. Which is the same as saying that your definition is circular.

How many black senators are there compared to the proportion of blacks in the population? How about CEO's? What's the infant mortality rate for Hispanic children compared to whites?

Show me statistics supporting your extraordinarily disingenuous hypothetical in regard to blacks wanting high office. That was beneath you. I hope.

Well, thanks for your vote of confidence, Jeff. Things are getting pretty heated around here and I suppose I am reacting to it. OK, so you say that social engineering is a feature of all societies. Are you referring to something like education? things like inheritance customs? things like makeup and nice clothes? The list goes on, but in a nutshell, are you saying that social engineering can be viewed as activity which is engaged in to enhance one's standing in the community?

QUOTE=badhatharry;

Social engineering= Marxism (no matter what Prof. Franco American Chef Boyardee says)

You seem to be mixing ethnicity, nations and products specific to competitive companies: The chef was neither French nor an employee of the namesake company:
Franco American.

SpaghettiOs were once a Franco-American brand, which was purchased by the Campbell Soup Company in 1915. It is now uncertain whether a Kirby ancestor or Kurt Eberling, Sr., the German-American employee, invented them.

Quoting Clay: How much money do you think I've made? Do you think it makes me a better person than you? I think this site is dominated by academic, journalisto, bureaucratic types like Michelle and Obama. Maybe not necessarily attorneys and professional racial grievance mongers employed by hospitals who urge students not to "waste their lives in the private sector", or who had one summer job once in the private sector "behind enemy lines" working in a minor sales role or as a major merchant banker (whichever you prefer) like Barack. I think people like the above are full of crap and dangerous, especially when protected by tenure or political machinery. Furthermore, I think I have never heard one comment about the economy on this site that wasn't made from an altitude of 100,000 ft. I get the distinct impression that a good percentage of the posts on this site come from people who have never owned a stock, much less started a business. And I think that Franco-American is a Frenchman whose ego was collateral damage in this debate. Nothing against the French, great fashion sense and wine. Hot women, too.

Quoting graz: QUOTE=badhatharry;

You seem to be mixing ethnicity, nations and products specific to competitive companies:

The chef was neither French nor an employee of the namesake company:
Franco American.

I was unaware that my screeunname evoked a Germano-American spaghetti maker. How distressing. Should I adopt another nom de plume?

Stay the course!

Quoting graz: QUOTE=badhatharry;

You seem to be mixing ethnicity, nations and products specific to competitive companies:

The chef was neither French nor an employee of the namesake company:
Franco American.

Yeah, I was wondering about that, myself, but was too pissed off to google it. Besides, in my typically stupid, right wing, mouth breathing way, I thought it was cute.

Quoting Salt: Quoting Clay: How much money do you think I've made? Do you think it makes me a better person than you?

I think this site is dominated by academic, journalisto, bureaucratic types like Michelle and Obama. Maybe not necessarily attorneys and professional racial grievance mongers employed by hospitals who urge students not to "waste their lives in the private sector", or who had one summer job once in the private sector "behind enemy lines" working in a minor sales role or as a major merchant banker (whichever you prefer) like Barack. I think people like the above are full of crap and dangerous, especially when protected by tenure or political machinery. Furthermore, I think I have never heard one comment about the economy on this site that wasn't made from an altitude of 100,000 ft. I get the distinct impression that a good percentage of the posts on this site come from people who have never owned a stock, much less started a business. And I think that Franco-American is a Frenchman whose ego was collateral damage in this debate. Nothing against the French, great fashion sense and wine. Hot women, too.

Hey Salt, I was born in the USA, but

Quoting Salt: I get the distinct impression that a good percentage of the posts on this site come from people who have never owned a stock, much less started a business.

I would be the exception then. But taking your earlier posts in mind, I moved all my cash and equities into gold... see you at the smelter.

Quoting claymisher: Did you answer that? I lose track of threads.

Sorta.

Quoting Franco: Hey Salt, I was born in the USA, but my mother was French. And my ego is intact. It certainly will never be hurt by someone like you. And I probably own more stocks than you will ever see. It must make you pretty tough when your mom is a war-bride.

You've succeeded in completely extinguishing any hope of anything useful or interesting going on in this thread. Thanks.

Quoting badhatharry: I have no idea what you are talking about.

That appears to be a true statement, but for lots of other people besides me, too.

My original comment ...

Don't try to re-spin your original addled commentary. Face it: you got busted making an asinine straw man argument (after back-patting a fellow wingnut who says what you'd like to say but don't have the guts to) and you regurgitated some racial slurs about the President, then you tried to worm your way out of what you were called on, then you tried the "poor me, being picked on" ruse. Despite your claims from a few months ago, about being mostly interested in evolutionary psychology and in having substantive conversations, virtually everything you have posted here is some variation of run-of-the-mill Fox & Friends-level cheerleading for Conservatism = always good, liberals = always bad, Obama = worst thing ever. If you can't see that, and you can't see why I consider what you post worth nothing but mockery, then you're kidding yourself, and whining about me (and others) calling you on your vapidity and the imaginary persecution you're suffering from my imaginary group of "adoring fans" isn't going to help

Quoting Salt: Quoting Franco: Hey Salt, I was born in the USA, but my mother was French. And my ego is intact. It certainly will never be hurt by someone like you. And I probably own more stocks than you will ever see.

It must make you pretty tough when your mom is a war-bride.

I have no idea what that means, but evidently you intend it as an insult. As a matter of fact, my mother was living in the US when she married. Sorry, another miss. You may be a self-made man, but you are also a first-rate crétin.

Quoting badhatharry: Yeah, I was wondering about that, myself, but was too pissed off to google it. Besides, in my typically stupid, right wing, mouth breathing way, I thought it was cute.

Admitting the existence of the problem is the first step to fixing it. Congratulations.

Quoting Franco:
I have no idea what that means, but evidently you intend it as an insult. As a matter of fact, my mother was living in the US when she married. Sorry, another miss. You may be a self-made man, but you are also a first-rate crétin. Mon Ami, you are the one who juxtaposed these two data points. Je m'excuse for conflating them. Don't be like this. Where is votre sang-froid, joie de vivre? This name calling is not gaullic at all. Henceforward, let us essay to leave the family histories out of this.

Quoting kezboard: You've succeeded in completely extinguishing any hope of anything useful or interesting going on in this thread. Thanks.

To be, perhaps, overly charitable to Salt, there is something of the Glenn Loury school of argumentation to him: Throw whatever ridiculous, slanderous arguments at your opponents that you can come up with, regardless of their internal contradictions, incoherence, and lack of grace, elegance, or wit. In this sense, his comments fit the DV perfectly.

I take back what I said; this was an excellent diavlog. Good insights and reporting from Dayo. Glenn seems to think we elected Dennis Kucinich. Lamentably, Obama talked up his support of the Afghanistan war during the campaign. His LBJ-isms regarding that pointless war should hardly come as a surprise.

Quoting Salt: Quoting Stephanie: Maybe you all just need to hash this out before getting into it with those of us in the middle.

What a forceful post! Stephanie, maybe you better get back to Oprah so you can make your mind up about what you believe.

Hmm. No, there's really no reasonable argument connecting your "response" to what I said. Feel free to try again.

Quoting badhatharry: OK, so you say that social engineering is a feature of all societies. Are you referring to something like education? things like inheritance customs? things like makeup and nice clothes? The list goes on, but in a nutshell, are you saying that social engineering can be viewed as activity which is engaged in to enhance one's standing in the community?

I'm sure Jeff will have his take on this, but in brief, here's a beginning at explaining mine. There's nothing anti-conservative about "social engineering." Basically, that's what tradition and government does, under traditional conservatism -- encourages certain kinds of behavior that society has decided to encourage. These are a broad range of things, from religion to stuff like the tax deduction for mortgage interest (which certainly is debateable at best in terms of public policy, but has been traditionally defended on conservative grounds), the Bush promotion of both encouraging home-ownership and marriage (both of which were quite consistent with conservative ideals, despite the desire to write him out of the record book now), the traditional idea that schools should inculcate civil responsibility and virtue (see lots of conservatives talking about such

Quoting badhatharry: ...

OK, so you say that social engineering is a feature of all societies. Are you referring to something like education? things like inheritance customs? things like makeup and nice clothes? The list goes on, but in a nutshell, are you saying that social engineering can be viewed as activity which is engaged in to enhance one's standing in the community?

Stephanie did a nice job of answering this from a directly relevant point of view. More braodly, I think you can turn the question inside out - what feature of a society isn't an example, or a consequence, of "social engineering?" Family structures, methods of governance, modes of transport and communications, economic systems, sexual mores, eating rituals, whatever... - where are the aspects of society that aren't engineered, or subject to engineering? And when have we ever stopped tinkering? Asking why it occurs seems to miss its basic essence - we do it, because that's what we do - as circular as that sounds. We do it for good reasons and bad ones: for personal gain; out of purest altruism; because there's an interesting problem to solve; or, just out of boredom. I think it's fair to say that if we ever stop doing it, that would mark

You seem to be under the impression that all those European socialist countries have few companies with any real business acumen. In my little sector of the economy however, European based companies are major players. I am incredibly low on the food chain, and yet I have probably filled out about 600,000 USD in PO's to buy crap from Siemens (Germany), around 90,000 USD to Gamesa (Spain), 50,000 USD to ETAP Lighting (Bulgaria? Hungaria?). It wouldn't surprise me at all if my boss has orders in the millions to alot of these European based companies (Many of the larger industrial components come from European Manufacturing companies for some reason)

Quoting Starwatcher162536: You seem to be under the impression that all those European socialist countries have few companies with any real business acumen.

In my little sector of the economy however, European based companies are major players. I am incredibly low on the food chain, and yet I have probably filled out about 600,000 USD in PO's to buy crap from Siemens (Germany), around 90,000 USD to Gamesa (Spain), 50,000 USD to ETAP Lighting (Bulgaria? Hungaria?).

It wouldn't surprise me at all if my boss has orders in the millions to alot of these European based companies (Many of the larger industrial components come from European Manufacturing companies for some reason)

Thanks for the info, but a simple perusal of the Fortune 500 list is enough to belie Salt's contention.

Quoting Bongs: Thanks for the info, but a simple perusal of the Fortune 500 list is enough to belie Salt's contention. If I'm not mistaken the Fortune 500 is a list of the 500 top AMERICAN companies. How is that going to give you an idea of the relative weight of European companies? Try again, amigo.
Quoting Stars: You seem to be under the impression that all those European socialist countries have few companies with any real business acumen. Sort of, not exactly. Why don't you google comparative advantage and Ricardian economics. I am not saying that the EU has no businesses. I'm sure they make superb lightbulbs, telecom equipment, nuclear power plants and all kinds of stuff. However, where does the most innovation and growth occur in any economy? In the tech sector, where you could also include biotech I guess, but leaving that aside. Siemens is a huge conglomerate that's been around for decades. How could you compare it to Apple, Intel, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, etc. Think about it, can you tell me where Silicon Valley is in Europe? Get real. Furthermore, anyone out there reading this who has never considered it before or considers it new info: WAKE UP!!

It seems that there is a Fortune 500 Global list, which I assume is what Nikki was referring to. Funny enough, if you make a list showing how many companies each country has on afformentioned list, 6 out of the top 10 countries are in Europe. It also might be worth noting, that per capita, France actually wins out over the US. I was somewhat surprised. As for Siemens, I think you underestimate them. They have been around for over a century, had over a 100 billion in revenue last year, employ over 400,000 people, have had research teams that have come up with a fair amount of stuff throughout the last century, such as the electron microscope, and is a major player in power generation, industrial automation, Motor drives, etc, which are fields that are every bit as innovative and important as what you mentioned. As for America being the leader in innovation, it might be true, but I think teck advancements may have more to do with the state of a countrys higher education then merely what economic theory is embraced. Edit:
I somewhat misread your post. Hmmm... I think some of our disagrements stem from that I don't look at things like facebook, google, Microsoft, Apple etc. as highly as

Quoting Stars: Also, what does how we set up our economy have to do with the creation of those companies? This goes back to how I think it has more to do with education, the idea men, happened to be Americans, so they set up shop in America. Do you think if America were more socilist those people would have skipped town and set up shop somewhere else? Uh, gee, I don't know. Nothing, I guess, except 80% of them are in the USA. Education has something to do with it, but most of all it is the legal system and capital markets (access to capital). Pierre Omidyar wasn't here until he set up Ebay. Sergei Brin was brought here from Russia by his parents. You see my point, I think. Why do you think these two left socialist/quasi socialist countries to come to the USA? They have lots of capital in France, not so much in Russia. In Russia, they have Gazprom, which by your definition must be a wonderfully innovative company, right up there with Exxon.

Quoting Starwatcher162536: It seems that there is a Fortune 500 Global list, which I assume is what Nikki was referring to. Funny enough, if you make a list showing how many companies each country has on afformentioned list, 6 out of the top 10 countries are in Europe. It also might be worth noting, that per capita, France actually wins out over the US. I was somewhat surprised.

Yep...France is third after the USA and Japan in the number of the largest companies (in terms of capitalisation). But measures such this, or GDP, or money spent of research, capture only a small part of what makes the quality of life of a country. European economists are trying to come up with some more nuanced measure of national wealth than GDP, which measures all kinds of things that have nothing to do with what makes life worth living. No one disputes American leadership in certain areas of scientific research and technological innovation. This is mainly due to the many excellent American universities and the ease with which researchers interact with entrepreneurs and suppliers of capital. France and other European countries could learn a lot from the US in this regard.

I haven’t read any of the comments which followed my rant against Brendan, but I’m sure they included some snide remarks about my use of 'sociopathologic' instead of the correct term, socio-pathological. I should have taken my spell-check’s advice on this one, but I was angry and ignored it. I do not expect to be agreed with. In fact my political position makes me a target on this forum and I accept that. I disagree with some on this board. I question some of the statements some made by the ‘heads’ and others. I guess I thought this is what the forum is about…discussion. I have tried to clarify my positions on things I say in a civil manner and I have admitted mistakes when I have made them.
I have engaged in what I have experienced as clarifying conversations with people like Jeff and Stephanie. This is why I am here. I want to learn what others believe and also to test my ideas out in the court of public opinion, (Limbaugh’s famous term). I do not follow any party line, but try to incorporate what I have read, experienced and what I just naturally believe into some kind of world view. When I first responded to Brendan’s comments to

Quoting badhatharry: I haven’t read any of the comments which followed my rant against Brendan, but I’m sure they included some snide remarks about my use of 'sociopathologic' instead of the correct term, socio-pathological. I should have taken my spell-check’s advice on this one, but I was angry and ignored it.

I do not expect to be agreed with. In fact my political position makes me a target on this forum and I accept that. I disagree with some on this board. I question some of the statements some made by the ‘heads’ and others. I guess I thought this is what the forum is about…discussion. I have tried to clarify my positions on things I say in a civil manner and I have admitted mistakes when I have made them.

I have engaged in what I have experienced as clarifying conversations with people like Jeff and Stephanie. This is why I am here. I want to learn what others believe and also to test my ideas out in the court of public opinion, (Limbaugh’s famous term). I do not follow any party line, but try to incorporate what I have read, experienced and what I just naturally believe into some kind of world view.

When I first responded to Brendan’s comments to

I agree that a simple tabulation of what countries happen to have the largest conglomarates is a poor proxy for measuring innovation. I didn't think anyone would actually try to quantify something as neboulous as innovation, turns out, I was wrong. Link I am not sure If I agree with their metrics (I can imagine different patent offices will have different guidelines for accepting patents which could lead to a source of systematic error), but it's probably a whole lot better then me and Salt merely reguritating the education vs. capital argument. Top 20 countries on said index, starting with the top:
Japan Switzerland Finland US Sweden Germany Taiwan Netherlands Israel
Denmark South Korea Austria France Canada Belgium Singapore Norway UK
Ireland Australia

A) If you think there is nothing to gain from interacting with bjkeefe, perhaps instead of posting posts of this nature, it would be better for you to use the ignore function on this forum. B) If your objective is to show that bjkeefe is a negative to this forum, this post probably would be better off in the general forum. C) For whats its worth, I think you are a decent poster.

Quoting Starwatcher162536: I agree that a simple tabulation of what countries happen to have the largest conglomarates is a poor proxy for measuring innovation.

Fun fact: Sweden and Australia have had better historical stock market returns than the US. There might be good arguments against social democracy but its incompatibility with innovation and profits ain't one of them.

Quoting Franco: But measures such this, or GDP, or money spent of research, capture only a small part of what makes the quality of life of a country. European economists are trying to come up with some more nuanced measure of national wealth than GDP, which measures all kinds of things that have nothing to do with what makes life worth living. Thank you Franco, for delivering the perfect contrast and bringing us to the crux of the entire debate. Instead of just looking at our computer screens and the applications riding on them, we should appoint some economists to come up with new measures. Why don't we get the EU to do a study? Sarkozy could pick someone great, I'm sure. Or the UN? That out to keep a couple of Kofi Annan's neices and nephews busy for a few years. Maybe a few law students from Harvard, Yale or ACORN could volunteer. Keep kidding yourselves.

Claymisher: Sweden and Australia have had better historical stock market returns than the US.
There might be good arguments against social democracy but its incompatibility with innovation and profits ain't one of them. Thank you for outing yourself as an index investor and someone who wouldn't know an investment risk from a hole in the ground. Either that, or someone who just likes to engage in lame sophistry. What does the price of copper have to do with technology innovation? What does the collapse of the financial sector have to do with technology innovation? Furthermore, what is the point of comparing two tiny countries to the USA, not just tiny in market cap, but also population. You have just proved that even morons can use google, which proves my original point.

Quoting Salt: Thank you Franco, for delivering the perfect contrast and bringing us to the crux of the entire debate. Instead of just looking at our computer screens and the applications riding on them, we should appoint some economists to come up with new measures. Why don't we get the EU to do a study? Sarkozy could pick someone great, I'm sure. Or the UN? That out to keep a couple of Kofi Annan's neices and nephews busy for a few years. Maybe a few law students from Harvard, Yale or ACORN could volunteer. Keep kidding yourselves.

Incoherent ramblings.

Quoting Franco: Incoherent ramblings. You probably say this alot. Fetchez la vache!

Quoting Salt: Claymisher: Sweden and Australia have had better historical stock market returns than the US.
There might be good arguments against social democracy but its incompatibility with innovation and profits ain't one of them.

It's true, nearly all of my investments are in indexed assets. You got me! What do you invest in?

Quoting Salt: Quoting Franco: Incoherent ramblings.

You probably say this alot.

Fetchez la vache!

I say it as often as it is warranted, which, in your case, will probably be every time.

Quoting Clay:
It's true, nearly all of my investments are in indexed assets. You got me! What do you invest in? Wow, what a breakthrough. An admission. I've got you now. Soon you'll be cancelling your Times subscription. I invest in resources, media in China and foreign bonds. In the past I have had much wider exposure, but I narrowed it dramatically in recent years (before the meltdown). The things I own I have been in and out of for years. I am not investing for any bounce because we've already had it, or most of it.

Quoting Salt: Quoting Clay:
It's true, nearly all of my investments are in indexed assets. You got me! What do you invest in?

Wow, what a breakthrough. An admission. I've got you now. Soon you'll be cancelling your Times subscription. I invest in resources, media in China and foreign bonds. In the past I have had much wider exposure, but I narrowed it dramatically in recent years (before the meltdown). The things I own I have been in and out of for years. I am not investing for any bounce because we've already had it, or most of it.

That's interesting. How do you buy foreign bonds? In funds or individually? Can you do that online or do you need a broker for it? btw, you might want to cool it with the insults.

Quoting Clay: That's interesting. How do you buy foreign bonds? In funds or individually? Can you do that online or do you need a broker for it?
btw, you might want to cool it with the insults. Three times yes. I bought mine through on online broker. I'm happy to trade insults with anyone. Most of the posters on this site, in the media and academia have been hurling abuse with no pushback for years. ABC, CBS, NBC and NYT were oligopolies for years, look what's happening now. Business models collapsing. Competition in anything is good.

Quoting Francoamerican: Yep...France is third after the USA and Japan in the number of the largest companies (in terms of capitalisation). But measures such this, or GDP, or money spent of research, capture only a small part of what makes the quality of life of a country. European economists are trying to come up with some more nuanced measure of national wealth than GDP, which measures all kinds of things that have nothing to do with what makes life worth living.

No one disputes American leadership in certain areas of scientific research and technological innovation. This is mainly due to the many excellent American universities and the ease with which researchers interact with entrepreneurs and suppliers of capital. France and other European countries could learn a lot from the US in this regard.

...with a feather.

...and so it goes.

Quoting Salt: Quoting Clay: That's interesting. How do you buy foreign bonds? In funds or individually? Can you do that online or do you need a broker for it?
btw, you might want to cool it with the insults.

Three times yes. I bought mine through on online broker. I'm happy to trade insults with anyone. Most of the posters on this site, in the media and academia have been hurling abuse with no pushback for years. ABC, CBS, NBC and NYT were oligopolies for years, look what's happening now. Business models collapsing. Competition in anything is good.

How's your strategy going? Beating the market?

You can always not respomnd; unless he actually has something to add to the discussion other than insult and invective. Of course this will leave you open to the childish I won you lost response but as I don't really see discussion as competition that on rarely bothers me.

A new record for lack of self-awareness, or denial, or something (emph. added):

Quoting piscivorous: You can always not respomnd; unless he actually has something to add to the discussion other than insult and invective. Of course this will leave you open to the childish I won you lost response but as I don't really see discussion as competition that on rarely bothers me.

I haven't laughed so hard since your little friend with the big mouth -- you know, the one who spent the better part of today calling people "hypocrite douche bags" -- accused someone else of an ad hominem attack.

I think you describe bjkeefe accurately, but don't let the progressive coterie get to you. They're going to disagree with you often and dish out the insults. It's just their thing.

Clay:How's your strategy going? Beating the market? Massively

Quoting Salt: Clay:How's your strategy going? Beating the market?

Massively

What are your returns?

Quoting Lyle: I think you describe bjkeefe accurately, but don't let the progressive coterie get to you. They're going to disagree with you often and dish out the insults. It's just their thing.

That makes "us" different from the conservatives on this board, how?

Clay, The public parts of my portfolio in equities are up an average of 250%. Tips are up 30% or back to what I paid for them. I have no shorts. Govt bonds not earning much. My private stuff could be a 10 bagger or it could be a zero. I hope it's a 10 bagger. Not sure how this all helps you, but that's all you need to know!

Quoting Salt: Clay, The public parts of my portfolio in equities are up an average of 250%. Tips are up 30% or back to what I paid for them. I have no shorts. Govt bonds not earning much. My private stuff could be a 10 bagger or it could be a zero. I hope it's a 10 bagger. Not sure how this all helps you, but that's all you need to know!

If you're earning 250%/year you ought to write a book. You could be the next Beardstown Ladies.

Quoting Whatfur: ...and so it goes.

You know it's hard out here for a wingnut (you ain't knowin)
When he tryin to get a call from the refs
For all the pearls clutched and fauxtrage spent (you ain't knowin)
Because a whole lot of libruls talkin shit (you ain't knowin) (apologies to 3 6 M)

Quoting bjkeefe: ...
(apologies)

Apologizing is a good first step.