Quoting osmium: I miss going to the geeky record store. It was a special place, and a blog can kind of be a place too, but it's not the same.

PS My geeky record store closed, and I suspect digital music has a few fingerprints on the body.

Amazon replaced my geeky record store (which closed in the nineties) a long time ago. I miss browsing the shelves, but I love the deep online catalog.

This pairing is proof positive that McWorther is gone for good.

Quoting WZA: When are we gonna hear raps about organic vegetables? The closest I can think of is a RZA mixtape when he says "I got wolves that'll murder ya for a veggie burger."

Yeah; that would be great! Then we could all Be Healthy.

There is an obvious response to this, though it's too bad that there's no decent version of Frank himself playing it. (That I could find.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZvFoSI5VN8

Quoting AemJeff: There is an obvious response to this, though it's too bad that there's no decent version of Frank himself playing it. (That I could find.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZvFoSI5VN8

My favorite Zappa record. There's no Billy the Mountain by The Mothers that I can find, either.

Quoting AemJeff: Amazon replaced my geeky record store (which closed in the nineties) a long time ago. I miss browsing the shelves, but I love the deep online catalog.

Yes, I agree, but am still nostalgic. I have my mp3 blogs I like, plus amazon and itunes. Not better, nor worse, just different.

I'm irritated with the fact that itunes, ipod and Apple's file formats are not called out as a separate development from the question of digital music stored in a folder versus vinyl/cassettes. Eli says "then of course we all got ipods," and I think he's making it synonymous with 'pocket-sized digital players'. It's not synonymous, and not everyone got an ipod. In my ideal world there would be a boycott of Apple, because they've pushed their own formats: m4a and m4p. My objections are (a) vertical integration crap, where their formats will only work on their players. Terrible. What if your LPs would only work on certain brands of turntables? What if you were all set to DJ and all you had were proprietary Technics records?
And (b) The 'p' in m4p stands for 'protected.' You can argue about copyright infringement, but what is up with the central databasing and tracking, what is up with having a login and password affiliated with something we used to just DO? I think this formats question is relevant to us omnivorous, endlessly curious music people because it can shut down experimentation. Posit an email thread going between Oliver and

Someone needs a duplex microphone.

Quoting nikkibong: This pairing is proof positive that McWorther is gone for good.

Do you mean John McWhorter? Why do you think that? And if true, why is he gone?

Quoting sugarkang: Do you mean John McWhorter? Why do you think that? And if true, why is he gone?

A little thing called Behe-gate

Quoting sugarkang: Do you mean John McWhorter? Why do you think that? And if true, why is he gone?

McWhorter literally wrote the book on whether or not Hip Hop has a "social message." His absence speaks "volumes," if you will.

Quoting nikkibong: McWhorter literally wrote the book on whether or not Hip Hop has a "social message." His absence speaks "volumes," if you will.

Eli is clearly a music-geek/vinyl fetishist and Oliver, as a critic and taste arbiter, is a pretty good match in that sense. I'm not sure that this pairing should necessarily be viewed in relationship to McWhorter.

Quoting AemJeff: Eli is clearly a music-geek/vinyl fetishist and Oliver, as a critic and taste arbiter, is a pretty good match in that sense. I'm not sure that this pairing should necessarily be viewed in relationship to McWhorter.

Agreed. This wasn't a diavlog primarily about the social significance of hip-hop (thank the FSM) and I don't think it's appropriate to view Oliver as some sort of "second-best." As Eli noted at the beginning, he'd been wanting to do this diavlog, with Oliver, for months.

Quoting Kevin: [...]

I take your overall point, Kevin. For the record (heh), I'll note that Apple's iTunes Store is now DRM-free, last I heard. I grant this does not completely remove the format headache, but it seems to me with not too much work, it's easy enough to get around it (at worst, burn a CD and re-rip it, right?). And, if you don't want to do business with iTunes or Apple more generally, that's fine, but I think they deserve some kudos for making the whole digital music thing work for people who wanted to be able to get a song with no muss and no fuss, some of whom are now more comfortable by virtue of Apple having coaxed them into the pool and will be more open to looking elsewhere for music. If Apple becomes too stifling, eventually market forces will correct that. On "ipod" vs iPod™, I can only say that this is an inevitable consequence of someone doing something first, best, or both. You might as well complain about someone making a xerox copy on a Canon machine or going to Yahoo.com to google somebody. Here, have a coke. Oh, wait, my nose is running; would you hand me a kleenex?

Quoting osmium: Yes, I agree, but am still nostalgic. I have my mp3 blogs I like, plus amazon and itunes. Not better, nor worse, just different.

And those favorite mp3 blogs are? I pretty much only listen to WFMU podcasts anymore.

Quoting bjkeefe: . . . I don't think it's appropriate to view Oliver as some sort of "second-best."

I agree. My point was that Eli, with no obvious background in Hip Hop or music writing/scholarship, besides that of your generic ironic whitey, is the second-stringer. Oliver's credentials in the field seem pretty much impeccable.

I always find myself dissatisfied with discussions around the question of gangster rap's social responsibility (or lack thereof). The most common defence I hear is the double standard argument, and it's the one Oliver's making here with some minor caveats. Why are we holding this music to standards of morality that aren't applied to movies or other aspects of American culture, is the basic line. That's an important and worthwhile point, but it should serve to begin, rather than end, a discussion. I'd like to see some serious thought go into the kinds of depictions of gun violence and drug use that we accept, and those that we're more uneasy about. I don't claim to have any answers here, but I do think we'd benefit from thinking through them. In the case of mainstream movies, we're usually loathe to celebrate violence and drug use for its own sake. We often seem perfectly happy to watch copious amounts of violence, as long as it's happening in the service of some kind of justice or righteousness. Drug use (here I mean hard drugs) rarely seems acceptable unless it serves to vilify an antagonist, or to highlight

Quoting nikkibong: McWhorter literally wrote the book on whether or not Hip Hop has a "social message." His absence speaks "volumes," if you will.

So in other words this is just speculation on your part right? I have no problem with speculation. I was worried that you were speaking authoritatively by having some insider knowledge. I'm asking for clarification because I feel like I missed some critical goings on having not visited the comments section in so long. It seems perfectly reasonable to have Eli for this discussion, and it seems Eli even initiated it, being a fan of Wang. Eli also had a hip hop diavlog a year ago with another blogger, so it seems right up his alley. It's not clear to me that McWhorter was the de facto person to do this. I was aware of the Behe incident, but didn't consider it "gate-like" enough to warrant his banishment. That would be a shame if McWhorter never came back.

Quoting sugarkang: Eli also had a hip hop diavlog a year ago with another blogger, so it seems right up his alley.

Spencer Ackerman, in case anyone wants to look up the DV.

Quoting nikkibong: I agree. My point was that Eli, with no obvious background in Hip Hop or music writing/scholarship, besides that of your generic ironic whitey, is the second-stringer. Oliver's credentials in the field seem pretty much impeccable.

I think you are being slightly unfair on Eli. He has had similair diavlogs like this in the past (with Jeff Chang), and it wouldn't suprise me if he instigated this particular chat. Regardless, I hope to see John back on the site at some point.

Oliver Wang gave the typical defense of gangsta rap. "They are just chronicling and reflecting on society, the record companies are behind it, white suburban teenagers make them do it, etc." I'm sorry, but this kind of hypocrisy bugs me to no end. Recently, an Austrian and a Swiss folk band were criticized for sexist and racist lyrics for example, and rightly so. I assume the same thing would happen in the United States. The German rock band Böhse Onkelz did some racist songs in the early 80ies and it took them almost two decades of repentance and apologies until people by and large accepted that they changed their ways.
Rammstein was a no-no on most radio stations for using Leni Riefenstahl footage in one of their music videos. So we do take lyrics, imagery etc. seriously and rightly so. In some cases, like Rammstein, in a hypersensitive way. The Moroccan-German rapper Bushido on the other hand brags in his raps in an endorsing fashion, insolently and in graphic detail about how he slaps women around, bashes gays, ... He had his posse crack peoples skulls and attack reporters, he attacked gays on gay pride

I wonder also if mediums, in addition to content, matters. Perhaps part of the reason we accept Michael Corleone's gangsterism more readily than Jay-Z's is because we have a longer narrative arc to understand and, in a sense, empathize with the person he becomes. Corleone is revealed to us as a reluctant participant in the family business whose ruthlessness is a necessary aspect of the world he eventually finds himself in. We watch that development in the course of hours, not seconds. I'm not sure a 4 minute song could convey that kind of subtlety, even if it wanted to.

Quoting BobsyerUncle: I wonder also if mediums, in addition to content, matters.

Perhaps part of the reason we accept Michael Corleone's gangsterism more readily than Jay-Z's is because we have a longer narrative arc to understand and, in a sense, empathize with the person he becomes. Corleone is revealed to us as a reluctant participant in the family business whose ruthlessness is a necessary aspect of the world he eventually finds himself in. We watch that development in the course of hours, not seconds. I'm not sure a 4 minute song could convey that kind of subtlety, even if it wanted to.

I think you could.
Think about Iron Maiden's The Trooper, Hey Joe, or Harry Chapin Cats in the Cradle. There are a lot of lyrics in a rap song. More than in most poems. You can tell entire, multi-layered stories in so few words. You can play with heroism and war, yet hint at the futility of it all. The problem with gangster rap is that it is frequently an outright endorsement, not a reflection. Most crack dealers are shot or in jail and end up as life long losers. That could inspire good lyrics, just as the mafia inspired screenwriters.

Eli asks the pretty well-worn question of Hip Hop bearing responsibility for the glorification of drug-related violence and Oliver, to his credit, does a decent job of reminding us that many other art forms and aspects of culture have a deeply embedded romance with violence and the underground. However this still leaves the question of why is it that Hip Hop continues to be singled out amongst those other various parts of art and culture? And again Oliver does a good job (if briefly) of making the slightly more courageous point that there remain historic racial bias' in a lot of criticism of Hip Hop. But then it's not just that the historically criminalized black man is making music which reflects his environment that bothers those critics. It's the perception that the "rapper" is the "criminal", that he is the character portrayed in the music. And because of Hip Hop's tendency to insist on "realness", of "only spitting it if you live it", a denial of this perception becomes more difficult to make. You're usually left feeling that life is imitating art just as

However this still leaves the question of why is it that Hip Hop continues to be singled out amongst those other various parts of art and culture? And again Oliver does a good job (if briefly) of making the slightly more courageous point that there remain historic racial bias' in a lot of criticism of Hip Hop.

Hip hop being singled out? Please show me a gun toting Redneck folk singer, who sings about shooting border crossing Mexicans, slapping his uppity wife, and forming a militia to shoot the president. Would anybody in his right mind defend such a person? Would he be invited on Letterman and get prizes from MTV? Yes, hip hop is being singled out. But not in the form of unfair criticism, but rather in the form of apologetics.

Quoting dieter: The problem with gangster rap is that it is frequently an outright endorsement, not a reflection.

I think that this is the conventional view of rap music while Wang's "justification" of rap is the minority position. And this is partly the reason for why I think Wang came out in such strong defense of gangster rap music. The idea that gangster rap is bad for kids and bad for society already has so much mindshare. I don't even think Wang would disagree with you. Rather, I think he just wants to paint the entire picture in context. For instance, let's consider the life and times of country singer, ex-convict Merle Haggard. This guy was in and out of prison a number of times in his life, obviously not the poster child for responsible living. He even managed to get a pardon from governor Ronald Reagan for no good reason other than the fact that he was a popular singer. If I listen to those old country songs now, the lyrics seems so benign. But surrounded by the culture at the time, I bet it was *the* music of choice for all who wanted to participate

Ugh, mainstream hip hop music. I would love to hear something about "underground" hip hop: Del the Funky Homosapien MC Paul Barman Kool Keith The Coup All these millionaire hip hop "entertainers" shouldn't be the topic of ANY conversation. "I write rap masterpieces, you can't complete your crap masters thesis?"
- MC Paul Barman

Quoting sugarkang: I think that this is the conventional view of rap music while Wang's "justification" of rap is the minority position. And this is partly the reason for why I think Wang came out in such strong defense of gangster rap music. The idea that gangster rap is bad for kids and bad for society already has so much mindshare.

Gangster Rap is not some kind of disease that has befallen mankind. It the product of individual, moral actors and their enablers, who can be addressed.

Quoting sugarkang: I don't even think Wang would disagree with you. Rather, I think he just wants to paint the entire picture in context.

The context he gives is besides the point, as I explained. No reasonable person is saying that gangster rap music is the only kind of objectionable music. There is nazi rock for example. But that isn't on TV and these musicians are shunned and have to persist on the fringes of society, where they belong.

Quoting sugarkang: For instance, let's consider the life and times of country singer, ex-convict Merle Haggard. This guy was in and out of prison a number of times in his life, obviously not the poster child for

Quoting nikkibong: I agree. My point was that Eli, with no obvious background in Hip Hop or music writing/scholarship, besides that of your generic ironic whitey, is the second-stringer. Oliver's credentials in the field seem pretty much impeccable.

OIC. Well, I think regulars get to do a personal interest diavlog from time to time. Plus, Eli has shown numerous times that he is interested in, and knows a lot about, music.

Quoting bjkeefe: OIC. Well, I think regulars get to do a personal interest diavlog from time to time. Plus, Eli has shown numerous times that he is interested in, and knows a lot about, music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU993Dihlm8

Quoting claymisher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU993Dihlm8

Okay, so a composer he's not.

Oliver says "It's not responsible for the drug wars. It might chronicle them, it might dramatize, it might, you know create narratives that can be profited from..." For someone with such impeccable credentials, it's amazing that he left out the word 'celebrate', which gangsta rap quite often does. To ignore this or to play it down is an insult to the community it comes from, but then quite often the music itself is an insult.

My point was that Eli, with no obvious background in Hip Hop or music writing/scholarship, besides that of your generic ironic whitey

We still are not at that day when a person is judged by the content of his hip-hop knowledge but by the color of his skin.
Geeky record store memory: My friends at Rhino Records and the penis-shaped balloons they used to give to customers for being 'D*ck Of The Day' (they had extra large ones for 'D*ck Of The Week'). Since Oliver is based in Long Beach, I'll share one of my Long Beach music (non-rap) memories: Elvis Costello and the Attractions at Millikan High School on their first American tour. Opening acts: Mink

Nods.

Quoting dieter: So I've googled the guy and found "Mama Tried". It is a good song and certainly not an endorsement of a criminal lifestyle. Quite the contrary. Could you point to a song of his in which he brags about crime and violence?

You can wikipedia his page and see that he was a frequent recidivist. He never specifically brags about a criminal lifestyle, but "outlaw" country music at the time was all about that kind of image. e.g., Johnny Paycheck: I'm The Only Hell My Mama Ever Raised. If you're asking me for a one to one, apples to apples comparison on lyrical content, then no, I can't provide that. Obviously music and movies have gotten more visceral over the years, so there's no comparing songs recorded 40 years ago to songs today. Just so you know, I never said you were wrong. I just think that you're missing some of the context. Put in another way, if hip hop violence were that influential, shouldn't crime, specifically violent crime, have a rising trend since gangster rap's inception in the late 1980s? So we should see some kind of trend of violence for the last 20 years, and yet violent crime has

!!!

Here's another one by the Beach Boys

Quoting sugarkang: Obviously music and movies have gotten more visceral over the years, so there's no comparing songs recorded 40 years ago to songs today.

Are you sure? Were there no racist folks songs back then?
Back then it was also perfectly acceptable for heroes to slap their wifes around. Steve McQueen in Getaway comes to mind. That wouldn't go down so well anymore.

Quoting sugarkang: Put in another way, if hip hop violence were that influential, shouldn't crime, specifically violent crime, have a rising trend since gangster rap's inception in the late 1980s? So we should see some kind of trend of violence for the last 20 years, and yet violent crime has either leveled off or even gone down in some cases.

I am not saying that it is necessarily the initial or single cause or even a major factor for crime. All I am asking for, is consistency in the way we approach these things. Violent crime is certainly up in Germany (and possibly Austria), with youths from immigrant communities perpetrating a lot of it. That includes cell phone muggings for example, which are frequently promoted by immigrant rappers. When journalists interview immigrant youths from Bremen, Berlin, Munich

Quoting claymisher: And those favorite mp3 blogs are?

I pretty much only listen to WFMU podcasts anymore.

Fluxblog is a favorite. It's current indie-type music: pop, rap, etc... gave me my first listen of the last Springsteen record, all that. Largeheartedboy is good, too. Takes its name from a Guided By Voices song, which makes me like it.

Quoting harkin: For someone with such impeccable credentials, it's amazing that he left out the word 'celebrate', which gangsta rap quite often does. To ignore this or to play it down is an insult to the community it comes from, but then quite often the music itself is an insult.

Geez. Listen to the Church Lady. Go buckle some seat belts, will you? Quit pretending you're on a mission to save The Negroes from themselves. Why, I'd bet you're an instant away from perverting an MLK quotation.

Quoting harkin: We still are not at that day when a person is judged by the content of his hip-hop knowledge but by the color of his skin.

It takes a special kind of race-baiting dullard to object to race-based talk in a discussion of a music deeply informed by the history of race relations in the U.S. You're special! Here, we're trying to approach a complicated issue with some sincerity and maybe even a little humor, and you take the opportunity to burst in with all the subtlety of a fire hose and a german shepherd. For you, there's no question of pausing to assess the

Oh, well in that case thank you for being a stalwart defender of upright citizenry. I'm not sure what your argument is, that we shouldn't congratulate popular artists if their art offends someone's idea of character? Or that you can't respect someone's art if you can't respect them as a person? (Your playlist is about to get much smaller) Or that they're only popular because the consumers are being duped into buying it? What do you make of the fact that these artists get such exposure, mere corporate chicanery? Seems a bit conspiratorial, and disrespectful of individual taste. Or maybe just barbaric bloodlust and voyeurism as Eli claims? Again, not giving the listener much credit. You do know that not all Hip Hop is simply blatant endorsement of a criminal or "immoral" lifestyle, that there is some actual criticism and self-awareness. That a number of those artists you might criticize are merely portraying a character and their actual lives bear little resemblance to the one described in their music. Or that a number of artists don't portray any character at all and actually do keep it real and

Geez. Listen to the Church Lady. Go buckle some seat belts, will you?

Quit pretending you're on a mission to save The Negroes from themselves. Why, I'd bet you're an instant away from perverting an MLK quotation.

Such anger! Plus mind-reading, and even fortune-telling! Awesome.

It takes a special kind of race-baiting dullard to object to race-based talk in a discussion of a music deeply informed by the history of race relations in the U.S.

So only liberals are allowed to joke? And I was race-baiting? LOLOL More of the incredible double-standard applied here regularly.

Here, we're trying to approach a complicated issue with some sincerity and maybe even a little humor, and you take the opportunity to burst in with all the subtlety of a fire hose and a german shepherd. For you, there's no question of pausing to assess the merits of a position;

I actually pointed out an obvious flaw in Oliver's position, which if you think again is an assessment of the merit of his position. In other words, you have more than one blind spot. That you can't see it is not my fault.

there's only a mad rush to twist a knife in

A) You suggest that one of the reasons hip hop was singled out for its offensiveness was not because of the lyrics themselves, but because of racial tensions, in short, people were looking for a reason to criticize something seen as "black", and went after hip hop because of this. B) Dieter points out that none of the mediums seen as "white" glorify a lifestyle that is anywhere as onerous as what hip hod does/did. C) You respond with something that is only tangentially related to Dieters post, and fail to refute his main point. Can you or can't you give examples of some country singer whose lyrics were anywhere as offensive as what was at one time, the bread and butter of hip hop, the glorification of violence?

What hive mind? Here, let's pick three comments posted today:

Quoting piscivorous: You got a patent on that machine that lets you see into the mind of some anonymous commenter so as to know what they know and explain it too the rest of the individuals on the board.

Quoting badhatharry: Oh, good! Another psychoanalyst! Maybe you and Keefe should set up a practice.

Quoting harkin: Such anger! Plus mind-reading, and even fortune-telling! Awesome.

I don't see any evidence of hive mind.

I'm pretty sure that dieter can answer for himself, but since you asked: A) I'm not sure "looking for a reason" is how racism tends to work, but yes. (People acting with racist motivations don't have to pre-meditate the racist qualifications of their beliefs in order to be guilty of racism, in fact, that's the whole problem) What would you suggest? That none of the criticism coming from broader white America was ever motivated by racial tension? Seriously? The history of slavery, segregation, lynching, and overall prejudice that has been a part of this country since its inception, somehow none of this plays any role in America's critique of Hip Hop? Again, seriously? You actually believe that most of the people that hold Hip Hop guilty of something have a bunch of black friends? B) Actually he doesn't point out that "none" of the mediums perceived as "white" are anything. He asks a rhetorical question that seems to imply that if I look I won't find any Country singers who are guilty of glorifying such an "onerous" lifestyle as you put it. Again, what does it matter if its mentioned in music? If a country singer sings sweet love songs

Quoting bjkeefe: What hive mind? Here, let's pick three comments posted today:
Originally Posted by piscivorous
You got a patent on that machine that lets you see into the mind of some anonymous commenter so as to know what they know and explain it too the rest of the individuals on the board.
Originally Posted by badhatharry
Oh, good! Another psychoanalyst! Maybe you and Keefe should set up a practice.
Originally Posted by harkin
Such anger! Plus mind-reading, and even fortune-telling! Awesome.

I don't see any evidence of hive mind.

Clear minds think alike, apparently. It's too bad you won't ever see the truth of all of these observations.
Don't worry, no one expects you to.

Quoting badhatharry: Clear minds think alike, apparently. It's too bad you won't ever see the truth of all of these observations.

"Clear minds think alike," huh? Now, where have I heard that claim before? Which fits in well with: "Truth," newly defined as something you and a few other residents of the Echo Chamber for Victimhood agree upon.

Quoting badhatharry: Don't worry, no one expects you to.

I'm not worried about your expectations. But I do have to wonder: if you actually believe this, why then do you spend so much time agitating about it? If only there were a mind-reader around ...

Quoting Ray: Here, we're trying to approach a complicated issue with some sincerity and maybe even a little humor, and you take the opportunity to burst in with all the subtlety of a fire hose and a german shepherd. For you, there's no question of pausing to assess the merits of a position; there's only a mad rush to twist a knife in the guts of blacks, on the hope that you'll draw some attention to yourself.

Quoting BJK: "Truth," newly defined as something you and a few other residents of the Echo Chamber for Victimhood agree upon.

LOLOLOLOL

Here's the thing: yes, other art forms glorify violence. But generally speaking, when a movie, say, does nothing but glorify violence, I would deem it a shitty movie. When it has something to say about--The Godfather, Goodfellas--it transforms itself into real art. I have no objection to hip hop that has something to say as it reflects upon violence, gun, drug culture. But when it does nothing but participate in that culture and revel in it, I think it's crap. Juvenile, hyper-macho, homophobic, misogynist, ignorant crap. So just to say, "Oh, how come hip hop is singled out?" is a lame justification. Show me the movie, book, painting, etc., that does the above, and I'll show you a gargantuan slew of people objecting to it. At the very least, how are hip hop fans not bored to death of the same old subject matter, over and over again.

I agree with MattCBrown when he says there are other forms of art that glorify violence and they would be considered crap, unless it was a movie like Goodfellas etc. But here is the problem. There is a large amount of hip hop music that is good, that does talk about eating right, that does says, respect our woman etc. Unfortunately when and artist puts that type of music out there, the A&R's don't allow it to get past the demo tape. While watching the debate between Wang and Lake, I couldn't help but to think that they are not hip hop fans but rap fans, who only purchase or listen to what I consider the top 40 of rap. I don't see them being the type that would listen an underground rap station on the internet or being fans of the emcess that are not on the radio. Also most hip hop talks about the things that is seen or experienced in their environment. unfortunately there are bithces, hoes, crack, weed, and liqour in these neighborhoods. The type of living that needs to be done to survive is so much different than one

1) I'm a huge McWhorter fan but this diavlog is not for him.
2) I love that Eli is into Hip Hop, and he knows his stuff.
3) HOWEVER, shame on both of you pronouncing Wale as wall-e instead of wah-lay.
4) If there is an bhtv Hip Hop fans check out my hip hop blog at gregshiphop.com (facebook.com/gregshiphop) where I post one free song for download everyday. Also available as podcast & rss (feed://gregshiphop.com/?feed=rss2)

Here's the thing, Omar. I get a lot of your points, especially the ones about "indie" and "underground" hip hop. You are so right about that. It's sad that the better stuff doesn't sell more. But still, we have to contend with the fact that mainstream rap, at least, has the glorification of a lot of awful nonsense deeply ingrained in it. It's not just in the subject matter; it's in the clothes, the attitude, the lifestyle. It's "The biggest badass with the most money and the most bitches wins." Some people seems to think that's "refreshingly honest" or something. I think its delusional. And also gross. But like I said there's a difference between commentary and glorification. On the commentary front, I think hip hop/rap is exceedingly valuable as an art form.

There are plenty of death metal type bands which have pretty unrepentent violent lyrics and associated iconography. Maybe they avoid critism as they are less visible or mainstream than their hip-hop counterparts.

Eli Lake has not a single clue as to what he's talking about (and as such O-Dub schooled him). I'm wondering why movies like "Saw" 1-6 or the like haven't been mentioned. There can be no doubt that visual cues are more stimulating than purely auditory ones, yet this boob Eli Lake isn't focusing on the "torture porn" genre. Of course there's a racial element to this. Any number of rock bands have dealt in misogynistic or violent lyrics, but that's left out of the discussion... Watching Eli Lake say "crack game" is hysterical though.

Quoting mentalelevation: hollowed out until it was merely a brutish hedonism (...Van Halen etc.)

FYI - if you can't even appreciate the genius of Van Halen, how can we take any of your opinions about music seriously? i think you need some aesthetic elevation, man!

This is a superb - albeit a bit dated - discussion about hip hop from a 1997 episode of Charlie Rose. It gets a bit heated between Armond White, Stanley Crouch, and Keith Clinkscales. With all due respect to Oliver and Eli, I found the following discussion far more profound than this rather trite diavlog: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ent=firefox-a#

Thanks... that was an interesting conversation among an interesting group. I know that you're a follower of Armond White's movie criticism, as am I.
I've also always respected Crouch's writing if not always his perspective. But most enjoyable about his on camera appearances is his curmudgeonly style and clarity of thought.

Oliver Wang's soul blog is F#@!ING AMAZING. Thanks to Eli and bhtv for bringing him on. I hadn't heard of it before.
This dv was alright. I don't know what you guys are so worked up about. It was more about soul than anything else anyway.

Word son. I hate to say it, but the relevancy of that Charlie Rose conversation is made possible not just because it's three intelligent men, but three intelligent black men. For better or worse, a black man can act as an ambassador or critic of Hip Hop in a way that no other type of person can. The perceptions of Hip Hop and the black community have been intertwined too thoroughly for any other result. And of course I respect Oliver, and Eli at the very least has a moderately-devoted fan's perspective. But they only interpret, they can't represent.

I'm 70% sure you're being sarcastic, but just in case my intuition is off: If we're speaking about Eddie Van Halen, then I would say the obvious, that he's amongst the greatest Rock guitarists of all time. But I think we can agree that the lyrical content of Van Halen the band wasn't exactly soul-stirring. David Lee Roth is no lyricist, even in the most liberal sense of the word. And as for Van Hagar, well...c'mon.

Stanley Crouch is excellent.

Quoting mentalelevation: I'm 70% sure you're being sarcastic, but just in case my intuition is off: If we're speaking about Eddie Van Halen, then I would say the obvious, that he's amongst the greatest Rock guitarists of all time. But I think we can agree that the lyrical content of Van Halen the band wasn't exactly soul-stirring. David Lee Roth is no lyricist, even in the most liberal sense of the word. And as for Van Hagar, well...c'mon.

That was a tongue-in cheek comment, I think we are in 100% agreement about our assessment of Van Halen - eddie's guitar is the only reason to listen.