Glenn Loury interviews Gershom Gorenberg about his book, The Unmaking of Israel. Glenn asks whether the real problem is that the Israeli state is ethnic, not that it's religious. Would empowering Arab Israelis be a smart move for Zionists? Gershom describes how government officials aided and abetted illegal settlers, and how lawlessness emerged. Are ultra-Orthodox Jews dependent on government largesse? Gershom closes on an optimistic note.