On Fireside Chats, Mark talks with Eric Liu, co-author of the new book The Gardens of Democracy. Eric explains how the best way to think about our economy isn’t as a giant machine, but rather as a garden—that is, a complex adaptive system. Mark asks whether Eric’s view of inequality is really very different from the consensus among liberals. Eric responds to Mark’s critique of the book’s proposal that government should focus on more on the goals it wants to achieve and less on how to achieve them. Eric wants a reinvigorated vision of citizenship, but is that possible when everyone thinks politics is corrupt? Finally, they discuss the myth of the wealthy job creator.