Quoting nikkibong: Proof that there is a God: We get another Michelle Goldberg DV.

Proof that God has a mean sense of humor: Michelle Goldberg is paired with Ann Althouse.

I actually found Michelle Goldberg much more interesting in this one than in her last one, where her co-diavlogger mostly agreed with her. I found many of her arguments much more interesting when she had to push back against her interlocutor. Edit: Wow. Apparently I spoke too soon. Ann Althouse's attempted debunking of all of MG's points against Sarah Palin was too much to believe. My goodness, how an obviously intelligent person can actually believe what she is saying in that discussion hurts my brain to contemplate.

I don't like dissing my fellow runner, but Sarah Palin seems to be going full trainwreck. Here, hold on, I have my finger on the pulse of America, let me tell you what it says... Ah: voters want someone stable. Now that we're through with Clinton and Bush, I think people would like someone a bit out of the 50s in the way that they don't have affairs and throw tantrums. Maybe this is Obama's appeal. It certainly will not be Palin's.

Disappearing as a governor might be worse than Anne thinks. I mean, I'm nobody, and if I vanished for several days it would be an enormously irresponsible thing to do. Everybody else: can you just disappear from your job like that? No, right?

I resent Althouse's estimation of the "ordinary American". So if you don't identify with Palin's message you're somehow abnormal? Hardly. I think "basic" or "simple" Americans is what she means. This sort of language, like Palin's discussion of "real America" during the campaign, is divisive because it subtly insinuates that those who don't agree with you are somehow less "American". Politically (and logically), I think this sort of message is a dead end. It might make your supporters feel better about themselves, but I don't think it does much for winning new support. Independents tired of having their patriotism questioned during the Bush years and Obama used that against conservatives during the election.

Oh, Althouse. When she defends Sarah Palin—particularly her most recent "speech," if it can be called that—she really shows her inner contrarian. Bucking up against popular opinion has its place, but when you have to reach that far, you're just button-pushing. Some people might find that intellectually stimulating, I guess, but it strikes me as embarrassing.

I think that is going to be the big issue for Sanford. I think Ann is right in pointing out that in practicality most states would be fine without a governor over a long weekend, but that misses the larger point. The big issue for Sanford is that he cannot escape how professionally irresponsible it was to do that and his explanation (true love/adultery), while touching, is not enough to excuse his behavior. Voters know this sort of behavior is unacceptable for them, so I don't think they will accept it from their governor and certainly not their future president. Like Mitt Romney recently said about this "Everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone is a governor."

I am convinced that the only reason Bob keeps inviting Ann back on is because he can't get Rush Limbaugh. It would take far more time than I care to spend detailing all of the inconsistencies in Ann's "thinking" on display in this diavlog, but I did have to laugh when after spending the first 95% of the diavlog insisting that the only possible reason that Palin quit was to run for president, she finished up by saying (paraphrased), "Who can tell why she quit? I don't want to say. We'll just have to wait and see." I was also glad Michelle quickly dismissed Ann's pathetic accusation of "sexism" (no one could have predicted Ann would go there!) regarding the speculation that Palin quit because she actually does want to spend more time with her family. One point Michelle did not make which bears saying: at least as far as I've heard, the only people who have offered this as their best guess for Palin bailing out of her job have been her supporters. People who do not like Palin tend to favor as a best guess a looming scandal

Ann, Don't you find that the important thing is that Sarah is a CHRISTIAN? Well, atleast she speaks Christian fluently.

Michelle Goldberg's analysis of Sarah Palin's speech is so insane.

Quoting bjkeefe: ... Ann thinks the "I quit" speech wasn't crazy-sounding; ...

Amusing tidbit on this: the version of Palin's "I Quit" speech that is currently posted on the official Alaska state government site has been edited since it first went up. Almost all of the ALL CAPS words have been changed. I wish I'd taken a screen shot, but I know I'm not the only one to have noticed the original version. Here, for example, is Paul Begala writing about it:

The text, as posted on Gov. Palin's official website (here), uses 2,549 words and 18 exclamation points. Lincoln freed the slaves with 719 words and nary an exclamation; Mr. Jefferson declared our independence in 1,322 words and, again, no exclamation points. Nixon resigned the presidency in 1,796 words -- still no exclamation points. Gov. Palin capitalized words at random - whole words, like "TO," "HELP," and "AND," and the first letter of "Troops."

Gov. Palin's official announcement that she is resigning as chief executive of the great state of Alaska had all the depth and gravitas of a 13-year-old's review of the Jonas Brothers' album on Facebook. She even quoted her parents' refrigerator magnet. (Note to self: if one of my kids becomes governor, throw away the refrigerator magnet that says: "Murray's Oyster Bar: We Shuck Em, You Suck Em!") She put her

I'm astonished that Ann sees anything but self-serving flakiness and other qualities that disqualify her for a political career, much less any notion that she should be allowed anywhere near the White House.
How much more foolish and incoherent would Palin have to be to lose Ann's confidence? Besides which, isn't Ann troubled by the depth of hostility behind the Palin smile? And the wide-ranging directions in which that hostility is scattershot?
Would Ann really want this person in charge of foreign policy, the economy, etc.

Quoting Lyle: Michelle Goldberg's analysis of Sarah Palin's speech is so insane.

Can you support this empty assertion? Or are you just making a joke?

Wow. Michelle Goldberg needs to calm down. Geez Sarah Palin is just person no need to go mad crazy!

Michelle Goldberg calm down.

Nice little slip of the tongue.
So Michelle was one of the Democratic muckrakers/opposition researchers sent to Alaska to dig up dirt on Sarah Palin.
But now we are to believe she is giving an unbiased opinion on Palin.

It's a joke. A pick at Goldberg's hate. Her analysis could be more measured in my opinion though. The diavlog was made probably before the FBI came out said they aren't investigating or planning to investigate Palin, so not Goldberg's fault, but her main point about "something coming down the turnpike" (as far as political/criminal investigations go... not personal maybe) is already shot.

I agree... haha. Her emotional response to Sarah Palin's latest speech is interesting. I love her descriptive words like insane, preposterous, astonishing, undercapable, ridiculous, and crazy. Not capable of running a middle school... haha. Not necessarily exercised about her... heh. Weimar... oh my!

Very honest and open discussion. Good stuff.

Quoting Markos: Would Ann really want this person in charge of foreign policy, the economy, etc.

There is a little doubt Palin would do a much better job on economy than the unfolding economic *catastrophe* Obama's presidency unleashed on the country. Obama may personally be smart, but Goldberg and her fellow liberals are deluded if they think cleverness and ability to demagogue with flare will make implementing socialist economics this time around any different from many failed attempts in the past. Socialism doesn’t work and no amount of intellectual sophistication in our leaders will get around this basic problem.
Not to mention what a delight would be on a personal level to have Sarah and her handsome Eskimo husband in the White House, instead of the current occupants.

Quoting messwithtexas: I resent Althouse's estimation of the "ordinary American". So if you don't identify with Palin's message you're somehow abnormal? Hardly. I think "basic" or "simple" Americans is what she means. This sort of language, like Palin's discussion of "real America" during the campaign, is divisive because it subtly insinuates that those who don't agree with you are somehow less "American".

Politically (and logically), I think this sort of message is a dead end. It might make your supporters feel better about themselves, but I don't think it does much for winning new support. Independents tired of having their patriotism questioned during the Bush years and Obama used that against conservatives during the election.

I agree. I actually think it's playing into the problems the Republicans are having with the professional class, a group that used to be much more split (due to economic issues) and now is trending into the Dems. I also think it explains a good bit of the strong reactions to Palin. However, media and pundit-type figures seem especially prone to convince themselves that it's a strong argument and likely to succeed, I think because they either have a complex that they aren't part of the "real

Quoting mattcbrown: Oh, Althouse. When she defends Sarah Palin—particularly her most recent "speech," if it can be called that—she really shows her inner contrarian. Bucking up against popular opinion has its place, but when you have to reach that far, you're just button-pushing. Some people might find that intellectually stimulating, I guess, but it strikes me as embarrassing.

I've only had the chance to listen to the very beginning of this one so far, but that's largely my read of Althouse. She knows Palin pushes buttons, knows she is an entertaining media figure, if all you care about it pure amusement, so it's entirely predictable that she'd become a Palin defender.

Why can't liberals just disagree with Sarah Palin or even George Bush? They have to call them every name in the book. It is odd.

Or maybe Michelle Goldberg is wildly overreacting to Palin so Ann tries to calm her down?

Well, some conservatives name call too. There are plenty of examples on talk radio. Either group blow back on one another.

Quoting PaulL: Nice little slip of the tongue.
So Michelle was one of the Democratic muckrakers/opposition researchers sent to Alaska to dig up dirt on Sarah Palin.
But now we are to believe she is giving an unbiased opinion on Palin.

and she threw in a mention of asking about the living arrangements of the Palin children ... Well, Michelle is honest and willing to talk to the other side. My guess is she will become a lot more tolerant in time. Problem is there are millions more activist democrats from urban areas of the country with a very narrow scope to their lives. Government means a lot to them. I fear they, along with government workers and aid recipients are a permanent voting majority. We have to break the primacy of the federal government in America. Allow states the option to opt out of the federal system.

didn't she quit because of legal bills? not that i care. she is kinda hot, though, i'd definitely hook up with her if i weren't married.

Your right conservatives name call. The difference is that we don't elect the name callers U.S. Senate (see Al Franken)

Quoting Lyle: It's a joke. A pick at Goldberg's hate.

Okay.

Her analysis could be more measured in my opinion though.

Not sure what makes you say that. I'll grant she got a little exasperated after sitting through an hour of Althousania, but then, what sane person wouldn't?

The diavlog was made probably before the FBI came out said they aren't investigating or planning to investigate Palin, so not Goldberg's fault, but her main point about "something coming down the turnpike" (as far as political/criminal investigations go... not personal maybe) is already shot.

Disagree. That the FBI has made this statement does not eliminate the possibility that Palin got wind of something coming down the pike. It could have been a word to wise concerning many other possible investigations; e.g., the IRS, the Alaska state ethics board (or whatever they call their organization), an exposé about to be published by a journalist, revelations about to be made by a political opponent, etc. I'm not saying any of this is at all in evidence; I am merely observing that the FBI's statement, whatever it was, does not eliminate the possibility that Palin resigned in light of a looming scandal of some sort.

Quoting JoeK: There is a little doubt Palin would do a much better job on economy than the unfolding economic *catastrophe* Obama's presidency unleashed on the country. Obama may personally be smart, but Goldberg and her fellow liberals are deluded if they think cleverness and ability to demagogue with flare will make implementing socialist economics this time around any different from many failed attempts in the past. Socialism doesn’t work and no amount of intellectual sophistication in our leaders will get around this basic problem.
Not to mention what a delight would be on a personal level to have Sarah and her handsome Eskimo husband in the White House, instead of the current occupants.

You must have missed the memo- accusing everything of being socialism has just made the term more popular. Americans have abandoned your Hoovernomics so you're going to have to be more creative with your labeling if you want to trick them to vote for it.

Quoting freedomforall: Why can't liberals just disagree with Sarah Palin or even George Bush? They have to call them every name in the book. It is odd.

I would ask you the same thing about reaction by conservatives to Barack Obama, Hillary and Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Al Franken, Barney Frank, and Nancy Pelosi. Just to name a few.

Quoting freedomforall: Your right conservatives name call. The difference is that we don't elect the name callers U.S. Senate (see Al Franken)

The only way you could believe this is if you take the "no TRUE communism" stance and hold that no real conservatives have ever been elected.

Quoting PaulL: Nice little slip of the tongue.

Why, exactly, is it a "slip of the tongue" for a reporter to say she went to do some reporting?

I don't think Althouse thinks those who don't support Palin are abnormal. I think she's trying to defend Palin's assertion of the other America's values (the other being what is not Goldberg's America). Althouse went out of her way to describe Palin's message as positive and not resentful (Goldberg's word and perception). Goldberg, I think, is projecting how she views frontier and rural America on to how Palin views urban, liberal America. Both sides do to this to one another actually. Nobody likes getting projected on I guess. Palin's basic national political message has been, imo: America isn't only urban and liberal, but rural and conservative too. She, and a lot of other conservatives today, are not much different from the populism of William Jennings Bryan. The same political tension between rural and urban America continues to this day. Sarah Palin is simply on the rural, populist side.

Last time I checked conservatives aren't drawing pictures of Barack with blood all over him like libs did to George Bush and post them on the internet. Conservatives aren't saying on the House floor that Obama gets thrilled when a American soldier dies like libs did to Bush. Conservatives aren't spreading rumors that Nancy Pelosi's children aren't hers like libs are doing to Sarah Palin.

It eliminates a Federal criminal investigation. Other stuff may be in the bushes (like I said), but she won't be getting charged with a Federal crime anytime soon.

Quoting freedomforall: Last time I checked conservatives aren't drawing pictures of Barack with blood all over him like libs did to George Bush and post them on the internet. Conservatives aren't saying on the House floor that Obama gets thrilled when a American soldier dies like libs did to Bush. Conservatives aren't spreading rumors that Nancy Pelosi's children aren't hers like libs are doing to Sarah Palin.

That's because "last time [you] checked" is never. Just because you turn a blind eye to Republicans making food stamps with pictures of Obama holding a watermelon and a fried chicken doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because you stick your fingers in your ears whenever Republicans talk about Obama being an anti-American socialist doesn't make it not so. Living in la-la land doesn't change reality for people who actually pay attention The idea that people you agree with are honourable knights of virtue and it's only people you disagree with who play dirty is the most infantile, ludicrous view of Washington there is.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: and she threw in a mention of asking about the living arrangements of the Palin children ... Well, Michelle is honest and willing to talk to the other side. My guess is she will become a lot more tolerant in time.

The mask slipped at the 35:00 point when Michelle said "I hate Sarah Palin" and saying Palin could not do the job that Obama does as President.
Such as blaming Bush for why anything he does to simulate the economy does not work. Or taking the side of the dictators in Iran and Honduras.
This quote covers the brilliance of Obama and Biden.

it has not escaped my attention that many of the things Palin is accused of, falsely, are actually true of Obama. This is a guy who, as a U.S. senator from Illinois, didn’t even know which Senate committees he was on or which states bordered his own. (And don’t even get me started on Joe “The Talking Donkey” Biden, who thinks FDR was president during the stock market crash and that people watched TV in those days.) I’m not saying Obama’s a moron, but he’s sure as hell no genius. People

ALTHOUSE is an idiot. That she sees any redeeming qualities in Palin is astounding.

Quoting freedomforall: Last time I checked conservatives aren't drawing pictures of Barack with blood all over him ...

Go look at some of the more extreme anti-abortion sites and pictures of the signs at their rallies. Google obama baby killer. Google obama antichrist. The untruths are out there, believe you me.

... like libs did to George Bush and post them on the internet.

Amazing what sort of reaction will come about when a president starts an illegal war based on lies, isn't it? Damn those DFHs and their overreactions!

Conservatives aren't saying on the House floor that Obama gets thrilled when a American soldier dies like libs did to Bush.

Wait a minute, you're confusing your wingnut talking points. As I understand it, all liberals crave the deaths of American soldiers, precisely because we hate America and The Troops™.

Conservatives aren't spreading rumors that Nancy Pelosi's children aren't hers like libs are doing to Sarah Palin.

As has been said numerous times elsewhere on this site, Andrew Sullivan's one-man band does not equal "libs." Retire this talking point. No one takes it seriously.

Quoting Lyle: It eliminates a Federal criminal investigation. Other stuff may be in the bushes (like I said), but she won't be getting charged with a Federal crime anytime soon.

That's a complicated way of agreeing with me, but okay.

Quoting bjkeefe: Why, exactly, is it a "slip of the tongue" for a reporter to say she went to do some reporting?

Does that definition of reporting include include Stanley Kurtz and his investigation of Barack Obama’s relationship with Bill Ayers in the Chicago Annenberg Challenge?

I don't think conservatives are more virtuous and I don't like fringe right wing attacks. I don't think Obama is anti-American or anything like that. But it is liberals that purport themselves to be more tolerant.

Quoting PaulL: The mask slipped ...

Why do you keep talking about this as inadvertent revelation of something hidden? Why not just see it as someone honestly expressing her opinion? There is no shame in having a strong visceral reaction against Sarah Palin.

Andrew Sullivan is NOT a one-man band. Bill Maher also said he didn't believe Trig was Sarah's baby. Also, remember a bunch of liberals spreading the rumor on Twitter and they didn't care if it was true or not.

Quoting PaulL: Does that definition of reporting include include Stanley Kurtz and his investigation of Barack Obama’s relationship with Bill Ayers in the Chicago Annenberg Challenge?

Yes. This is what investigative reporters do -- they get an idea or a lead and they dig into it. You might think that someone is wasting time when there's no there there, or fails to show evidence to support his or her case, or even question the honesty of the presentation, but so what? I'm happy to judge the work product and I'm glad that people have the urge to put in the effort.

Quoting PaulL: The mask slipped at the 35:00 point when Michelle said "I hate Sarah Palin" and saying Palin could not do the job that Obama does as President.
Such as blaming Bush for why anything he does to simulate the economy does not work. Or taking the side of the dictators in Iran and Honduras.
This quote covers the brilliance of Obama and Biden.

you dont even need these quotes. Democrats think you need stimulus spending to spur the economy. Despite all the current evidence that the stimulus is not working, they continue to call for this approach. And how smart can Obama be that he does not go a lot slower on the deficit spending of his government. Seccession, more diversity in government - the only answer.

Quoting freedomforall: Andrew Sullivan is NOT a one-man band. Bill Maher also said he didn't believe Trig was Sarah's baby.

Can you document your claim about Maher? I watched every episode of Real Time during the campaign, and I don't remember this. I could imagine him making a joke about it, or raising it as a question to his panel -- e.g., "Do you think there's anything to this rumor?" -- but I don't have the sense that he pushed this idea.

Also, remember a bunch of liberals spreading the rumor on Twitter and they didn't care if it was true or not.

Oh, give me a break. If you want to say that nut-picking tweets counts as a representative sample, then I'll go to the comments section of any blog or forum in Greater Wingnuttia and find you someone claiming any of a thousand different things about Obama. My earlier question to you remains.

Yep here is Bill Maher saying he is not convinced Trig is her baby. How grotesque!

Quoting freedomforall: I don't think conservatives are more virtuous and I don't like fringe right wing attacks. I don't think Obama is anti-American or anything like that. But it is liberals that purport themselves to be more tolerant.

No. This is a straw man that some on the right use in an attempt to shield themselves from criticism for saying stupid things, like pushing creationism into schools under the guise of "free speech" -- "Waaaah! You're supposed to be the tolerant ones! Waaah!" Or, as in this case, to give themselves reasons to be fauxtraged at The Very Idea that anyone would dare to say an unkind word about Our Sarah. Get it out of your head that liberal tolerance as expressed in support for things like equal rights, immigration reform, and increased diversity among those who govern the country means that we also agree not to call a moron a moron.

Quoting bjkeefe: There is no shame in having a strong visceral reaction against Sarah Palin.

A strong visceral reaction against Barrack Obama indicate racism and wanting the US to fail. All who do not embrace the one must be shamed, shunned and sent to reeducation camps.
Because dissent is [no longer] the highest form of patriotism.

Or, as in this case, to give themselves reasons to be fauxtraged at The Very Idea that anyone would dare to say an unkind word about Our Sarah.

I would actually prefer Romney for the Republican presidential instead of Palin. So I'm not a Sarabot.

Actually, you agreed with me first.

Quoting xjudson: ALTHOUSE is an idiot. That she sees any redeeming qualities in Palin is astounding.

i don't think she does - i think she sees a redeeming quality to defending palin, which is getting attention.

Sarah Palin is a human being and a pretty one at that... of course there is something redeeming about her. She is also the governor of Alaska. Who here could be governor of their State?

Quoting freedomforall: Yep here is Bill Maher saying he is not convinced Trig is her baby.

Yeah, like I said. He raised it once as a question and riffed on it for a minute, for laughs. This is not anywhere close to pushing the idea.

How grotesque!

This is a fairly breathless comment from someone who has been so critical of one of our diavlogger's affect. Look, the reality of the situation, as it stood when people first heard of Sarah Palin, is that there was weirdness about her pregnancy with Trig. She had kept it very quiet, she acted oddly when it was time to deliver him, there weren't good records about it, and she flipped out when the Alaska Daily News tried to get her to answer a few questions about it just to put the rumors to rest. It is not "grotesque" for people to gossip and chatter about things like this, unless you also want to call all human gossiping "grotesque."

Yeah, like I said. He raised it once as a question and riffed on it for a minute, for laughs. This is not anywhere close to pushing the idea.

Sure he was just "questioning." Kind of like when someone gossips about someone else and they want to spread a rumor about them try to do in question form when we all know they are trying to spread the rumor. How can u defend that?

Quoting PaulL: A strong visceral reaction against Barrack Obama indicate racism and wanting the US to fail. All who do not embrace the one must be shamed, shunned and sent to reeducation camps.
Because dissent is [no longer] the highest form of patriotism.

Pure wingnut blather, especially the hysteria about "reeducation camps." And no, you don't get automatically get called a racist for disliking how Obama strikes you. Take off your victim's cloak and stop repeating Malkin's nonsense. Spend less time listening to Bachmann and Limbaugh. You'll be healthier for it.

Quoting freedomforall: Sure he was just "questioning." Kind of like when someone gossips about someone else and they want to spread a rumor about them try to do in question form when we all know they are trying to spread the rumor. How can u defend that?

Glad to see you're backing off from your claim that Maher was pushing this rumor. As to how I can defend it, re-read the last paragraph of my previous response. Talking about something that's getting a lot of buzz is normal human behavior, especially for political comedians.

Quoting Lyle: Actually, you agreed with me first.

And you wonder why I call you a child.

Quoting freedomforall: I would actually prefer Romney for the Republican presidential instead of Palin. So I'm not a Sarabot.

That statement does not accord very well with all of your other comments in this thread, but okay, if you say so.

Someone has go to correct you.

Quoting Lyle: Someone has go to correct you.

This does not merit a response.

Haha... yet you responded. Classic keefe.

Ugh. He was just asking the question. He said he "was not convinced" Trig was her child.

There is a lot I don't like about Ann Althouse. Perhaps the thing that bothers me the most is what happens to the comment section when she appears. Take note, Bob. If I was looking to invest in this site reading these particular comments wouldn't encourage me.

Quoting freedomforall: I would actually prefer Romney for the Republican presidential instead of Palin. So I'm not a Sarabot.

I wouldn't mind voting for Romney. His Mormonism should not hurt him with Evangelicals this time around, since Mormons proved their conservative bona fides when achieving enviable popular success with California's Prop 8. I was toying with idea of a potential political career of another promising Mormon - bhtv's own Will Wilkinson. If only he abandons embarrassing liberaltarianism gimmick and fully embraces libertarian-conservative fusion. He could be good Republican politican.
He would also have to dump his current girlfriend and marry some lovely conservative, of course. Carrie Prejean, the girl who awakened some of us from dogmatic slumber, comes to mind.

Quoting Lyle: Haha... yet you responded.

Yep. Just to let you know that I had read it and wouldn't be continuing the thread.

Quoting Lyle: Classic keefe.

Thanks for complimenting my manners.

Quoting freedomforall: Ugh. He was just asking the question. He said he "was not convinced" Trig was her child.

This has nothing to do with what you originally claimed -- that Maher was pushing this rumor in a manner akin to Sullivan. I don't care how he put it that one time -- it was an item at the front of every political follower's mind. In fact, you'll note in the clip that you linked to that it was his guest who brought it up to begin with.

Quoting bjkeefe: Take off your victim's cloak and stop repeating Malkin's nonsense. Spend less time listening to Bachmann and Limbaugh. You'll be healthier for it.

Maybe I get that impression from progressive seers such as Paul Krugman
Global warming “deniers” are committing “treason” against the planet
Or Janeane Garofalo

“Let’s be very honest about what this is about,” she said. “It’s not about bashing Democrats, it’s not about taxes, they have no idea what the Boston tea party was about, they don’t know their history at all. This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of teabagging rednecks.”

Quoting PaulL: Such as Paul Krugman?
Paul Krugman: Global warming “deniers” are committing “treason” against the planet

How is Krugman saying this the same as Malkin constantly whining that all criticisms of Obama are RAAACIST? How is it the same as wingnuts claiming, repeatedly, the utter lie that Obama has in mind reeducation camps? Krugman was expressing a value judgment, not making an assertion of fact. Plus, let's remember that he did it precisely once, and let's also acknowledge that he did it on purpose, to recall the frequent use of the T-card against him and people like him, who opposed Bush's invasion of Iraq and other crimes.

Ann and Michelle are enjoyable as usual. Michelle reminds me of the girl artist in the movie, The Living End. Ann looks happily relaxed with a tableau of sofa and artwork on the wall behind her. My only complaint is that Michelle is poofing and arranging a bit too much her hairdo, as if she were in front of her boudoir mirror. As for the content of the diavlog, well you know, speculation about what´s on Sarah Palin´s mind borders on madness.

Stay classy.

Quoting freedomforall: Stay classy.

It wasn't my intention to be classy, but I did mean to say, Mormons are the shit.

Wait doesn't Sullivan do the same thing as Maher? Sullivan pretends he's "just asking question" when really he pushing the smear.

Quoting messwithtexas: I resent Althouse's estimation of the "ordinary American". So if you don't identify with Palin's message you're somehow abnormal? Hardly. I think "basic" or "simple" Americans is what she means. This sort of language, like Palin's discussion of "real America" during the campaign, is divisive because it SUBTLEY insinuates that those who don't agree with you are somehow less "American".

Politically (and logically), I think this sort of message is a dead end. It might make your supporters feel better about themselves, but I don't think it does much for winning new support. Independents tired of having their patriotism questioned during the Bush years and Obama used that against conservatives during the election.

I wonder where the subtlety is ?? One of the things conservatives don't have an issue with is subtlety and I doubt that they are going to abandon a perceived strength in order to appeal to fans of subtlety. I guess however if conservatives have a new found interest in nuance they can now take over the mantle of tolerance. Who knew conservatives had such an ability to identify with the OTHER. I thought fighting evil and purging the profane was the point.

Quoting freedomforall: Wait doesn't Sullivan do the same thing as Maher? Sullivan pretends he's "just asking question" when really he pushing the smear.

Having conceded that Maher did not do the same thing as Sullivan, you're now trying to argue that Sullivan does the same thing as Maher? Look. You'll find almost no one who will say Sullivan didn't beat the "who is Trig's mother?" question into the ground, dig it up, and beat it some more. I can imagine some partial excuses for his behavior -- he wanted to illustrate by counterexample the far right's idiocy with their obsession over things like Ayers-as-mole, Seekrit Muslin!!!1!, and the Cult of the COLB; and he probably got to the point where he enjoyed the hysteria he was provoking -- but never mind that. The important thing is that you've forgotten the main point of contention: it is not true, as you originally asserted, that "libs" spread these rumors. It was one guy doing it actively, and for a while, a few people making jokes about it. Now live up to your claim that you're "not a Sarabot" and give this a rest.

I think Michelle would make a lovely Miss California. But I think Michelle and Ann don't understand some things about the male sex drive and the power of the physical beauty of large numbers of women to unlock something that feels like love in an individual man. I don't think Michelle and Ann understand what many men have to cope with in this regard.
There does seem to be some degree of difference between men and women in this regard.
The annoying thing about Mark Sanford's situation is that he tried to impose his own religiosity on others. I'm not so sure I see such a difference between Mark Sanford's affair and Bill Clinton's efforts to avoid intercourse with Monica.
I think Bill Clinton's partial physicality with Monica was (as reported, as I recall) an effort to release his frustrated desire without "cheating" on Hillary. And I believe a big part of this is the fact that Bill truly does love Hillary. At the same time, I think he had affection for Monica.
I know that has been judged to be a ridiculous theory, that fellatio does not constitute infidelity. But Sanford himself refers

I was trying to be charitable.

Ann, your haircut is so cute!!! I'm sorry this post doesn't have anything substantive to say, other than to note that I really like Michelle Goldberg. But it's just that I almost have a physical urge to note a flattering haircut when I see it. Again, sorry.

I don't think Althouse thinks those who don't support Palin are abnormal. I think she's trying to defend Palin's assertion of the other America's values (the other being what is not Goldberg's America). Althouse went out of her way to describe Palin's message as positive and not resentful (Goldberg's word and perception). Goldberg, I think, is projecting how she views frontier and rural America on to how Palin views urban, liberal America. Both sides do to this to one another actually. Nobody likes getting projected on I guess.

Abnormal may not be the best choice of words, but Ann does imply that Michelle and others that share her opinion are not part of the group of "ordinary Americans" that Palin appeals to. "Out of the ordinary" may be more accurate. To the different America's metaphor, Ann makes no indication she means only a segment of America except to indicate the "ordinary" one.

Palin's basic national political message has been, imo: America isn't only urban and liberal, but rural and conservative too. She, and a lot of other conservatives today, are not much different from the populism of William Jennings Bryan. The same political tension between rural and urban

By not mentioning what 'higher purpose' she is seeking, Palin is being smart. She knew it would rush many liberal bloggers into a feeding frenzy which can only make her look more sympathetic to her base (and possibly, even beyond her base). So the score at half time is Liberal Bloggers 0 - Sarah Palin 1. Obama's populist rhetoric got more traction among the moderates and independents than Palin's because (a) Obama was running against Bush during an economic downturn; (b) McCain's campaign made some spectacular miscalculations and (c) Obama used more 'inclusive' and upbeat rhetoric (at least when he was not talking behind closed doors to the liberal faithfuls). But, after some uploading of information into Palin's brain as Ann suggests, even if Palin does not change her tone, her 'outsider' credentials may become more appealing to the voters if Obama's economic and foreign policy proposals do not result in significant improvements by 2012. Liberal bloggers should not let their inbred chatter blind them to the fact that "Obama '12" could be the "Bush '08" and "Palin '12" could be the "Obama '08". She may lack analytical skills but she is smart

Quoting freedomforall: Your right conservatives name call. The difference is that we don't elect the name callers U.S. Senate (see Al Franken)

Erm, Sen. Inhofe (R-OK) just called fellow Sen. Franken a clown.

Quoting PaulL: Nice little slip of the tongue.
So Michelle was one of the Democratic muckrakers/opposition researchers sent to Alaska to dig up dirt on Sarah Palin.
But now we are to believe she is giving an unbiased opinion on Palin.

Here I was thinking that only 'liberals' indulged in wild conspiracy theories... ;-)

Quoting nautirony: By not mentioning what 'higher purpose' she is seeking, Palin is being smart. She knew it would rush many liberal bloggers into a feeding frenzy which can only make her look more sympathetic to her base (and possibly, even beyond her base). So the score at half time is Liberal Bloggers 0 - Sarah Palin 1.

I fail to see this. First, her remaining fans are at this point going to be her loyal fans no matter what. Rallying them, even if your claim about sympathy is true, doesn't buy her anything. Second, some of her fans that weren't completely gaga have had the bloom go off the rose, fast. No more starbursts for Lowry, for example. Rove called it "risky strategy." Krauthammer called it "the most unexpected and, I would say, erratic political announcement since John McCain declared in the middle of September he was going to suspend his campaign ..." Mark Steyn called the move a "disaster." Ace of Spades (CPAC Blogger of the Year in 2007) said, "And that is that. It's over. You can't resign from a governorship and then run for higher office." Hot Air's Allahpundit agrees with this. Hot Air's Ed Morrissey says, "She has destroyed her own

Quoting messwithtexas: Abnormal may not be the best choice of words, but Ann does imply that Michelle and others that share her opinion are not part of the group of "ordinary Americans" that Palin appeals to. "Out of the ordinary" may be more accurate. To the different America's metaphor, Ann makes no indication she means only a segment of America except to indicate the "ordinary" one.

She may have conveyed that, but I think she meant to describe the America that's not Goldberg's America.

Quoting messwithtexas: I don't disagree with Ann's larger point that there are some people that Palin strikes a chord with and I agree with your assertion that this is a sort of "rural populism". I just resent the divisive language that claims a monopoly on Americanism. I don't think that is projection.

I don't think Althouse or Sarah Palin use divisive language though. There are rural populists or conservatives that do and some may support Palin, but Palin's rhetoric doesn't veer into the negative from what I've heard.

How about a DV with Ann Althouse on one side and Sarah Palin on the other so we can see if Ann, in 60 minutes, can induce the ex-Governor to make one single coherent statement that doesn't sound embarrassingly moronic. Seriously - trying to defend Palin takes the concept of "jumping the shark" to uncharted territory.

Quoting Lyle: I don't think Althouse or Sarah Palin use divisive language though.

Doesn't the fact that most liberals find both of these women highly offensive and obnoxious mean anything to you, as far as "divisive" goes?

There are rural populists or conservatives that do and some may support Palin, but Palin's rhetoric doesn't veer into the negative from what I've heard.

All that stuff on the campaign trail about "Obama palling around with terrorists" and "real Americans" doesn't strike you as negative?

bjkeefe: Great response - I admire your patience. I started to reply to this comment but wound up just shaking my head in disbelief and giving up.

Quoting mmacklem: My goodness, how an obviously intelligent person can actually believe what she is saying in that discussion hurts my brain to contemplate.

"Are you the brain specialist? My brain hurts!" I just had to slip a little Monty Python in there. As for the diavlog, it also makes the blood boil. The constant interruptions throughout betray the fact that that woman on the right was not even listening to Mrs Goldberg. Also, it seems that dittohead indoctrination will make even a seemingly intelligent person perform some outlandish mental gymnastics along with selective amnesia. And so, Obama's campaign speeches were divisive, while the whole "Obama pals around with terrorists" was okey dokey, and so were the crowd chants of "Kill Obama" at Palin rallies last year. Might as well also smile benevolently at Limbaugh's little ditty "Barack the magic negro". To my utter disbelief, the hits just kept on coming:
1) William Kristol's endorsement of Palin as a positive thing. Because, you know, Kristol is an intellectual titan and quite the neocon prophet.
2) Republicans directing gratuitous and vicious comments at Chelsea Clinton was all, you know, good clean fun, while making jokes about unwed teenage mothers who flip-flop their

I don't know much about Twitter so this could be totally wrong but I googled twitter palin and twitter arnold and it would seem that at the moment 65,000 people are following Arnold and 41 people are following Palin.

Quoting themightypuck: I don't know much about Twitter so this could be totally wrong but I googled twitter palin and twitter arnold and it would seem that at the moment 65,000 people are following Arnold and 41 people are following Palin.

Heh. You must have come across one of the fake Palin Twitter accouts. Her actual account shows a touch under 75,000 followers at the moment.

Quoting timba: bjkeefe: Great response - I admire your patience. I started to reply to this comment but wound up just shaking my head in disbelief and giving up.

Thanks.

"She Scoots to Conquer: Rightbloggers Celebrate Sarah Palin's Latest Masterstroke" is now available. And if you missed it, Roy's Friday post, "Palin to Resign Governorship of Alaska, Expected to Focus on Complaining," is worth reading as an appetizer. An interesting point from today's post, which contradicts another howler that Ann let loose, which I forgot about earlier:

You could hardly ask for better evidence that Palin plans to build her movement on resentment and victim status, and rightbloggers went into raptures over it.

Bonus: the post includes coverage of the True Believers bickering with the "Vichy Republicans" who had earlier dared to comment negatively on Palin's Big Quit.

I wonder if Ann doesn't think much of the state of South Carolina. Could not imagine the same argument (who cares if he disappears for a couple days?) being applied to, say, California or New York. For instance.

Quoting bjkeefe: Doesn't the fact that most liberals find both of these women highly offensive and obnoxious mean anything to you, as far as "divisive" goes?

Not really. They just disagree with you and you can't handle it.

Quoting bjkeefe: All that stuff on the campaign trail about "Obama palling around with terrorists" and "real Americans" doesn't strike you as negative?

Obama hung out with Ayers and she's proud of where she's from. She doesn't hate you guys like you hate her.

Palin clearly states conservative principles..hmmm...this is thin ground here. I know what Ann is after, but I disagree. I seem to remember Sarah Palin getting caught just as often in her own words as soaring to rhetorical heights stating any principles. Again, there's just not enough depth there, IMO. Nor width. If information can be uploaded into her; if she can bone up on things, that she can speak back to people. If she could get up to speed, she could be great - Ann says. I would add -- if she understands it. All of that is useless unless she understands what is being drilled into her.

Quoting mmacklem: ....Ann Althouse's attempted debunking of all of MG's points against Sarah Palin was too much to believe. My goodness, how an obviously intelligent person can actually believe what she is saying in that discussion hurts my brain to contemplate.

I'm not sure how much of what Ann defends reflects what she actually believes. Many times she's just looking for some weakness in the other person's (whomever she is interacting with) argument or just finding the other side of the coin. It seems to me she is doing what lawyers are supposed to be good at doing. She's good at it even if we disagree with her arguments.

Quoting Lyle: Not really. They just disagree with you and you can't handle it.

However much you want to portray your girlfriends as saints and put all of the blame on liberals' shortcomings, it does not at all change the fact that Palin and Althouse are divisive, by definition.

Obama hung out with Ayers and she's proud of where she's from. She doesn't hate you guys like you hate her.

This is just pure idiocy. Anyone who isn't a wingnut knows Obama did not "hang out" with Ayers, and certainly had nothing to do with him forty years ago. And excuse me, but being proud of where you come from doesn't change the reality that calling everyone else who doesn't not-real Americans is negative speech.

Quoting bjkeefe: I fail to see this. First, her remaining fans are at this point going to be her loyal fans no matter what. Rallying them, even if your claim about sympathy is true, doesn't buy her anything...

Second, some of her fans that weren't completely gaga have had the bloom go off the rose, fast...

What I was trying to say is, quitting the governorship is indeed a risky and possibly stupid thing to do but I'd prefer the liberal bloggers to dwell on that rather than the unsubstantiated rumors so that they would not give Palin an opportunity to play victim (and motivate her base even more). I don't want to bet on a Palin victory in '12. I am not even sure if she would run. I was only providing scenarios based on a lot of ifs...

Depends on your definition of hung out. They know each other and Obama used Ayers and his home to further his political career. No they aren't buddies and Obama is a much, much better human being than Ayers, but they spent some time together and one can call that hanging out.

I am also not a fan of people saying that they hate Palin. Good bloggers should articulate why they dislike Palin and let the readers come to their own conclusions. The same thing is true for taking pot shots (though Palin is such an easy target)...

I was looking at the following v followers number based on an assumption on my part that following = active and followers = anyone that ever looked. In any case, Arnold's followers number is over half a million.

You will also notice that the quote was in the context of his time as a comedian by job description that does make him a clown does it not.

Quoting themightypuck: I was looking at the following v followers number based on an assumption on my part that following = active and followers = anyone that ever looked. In any case, Arnold's followers number is over half a million.

Okay.

Quoting nautirony: The same thing is true for taking pot shots (though Palin is such an easy target)...

Fox News's Liz Trotta agrees with you (video).

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno." -- Sen. John McCain, speaking to a Republican dinner, June 1998.

From the Village voice entry I enjoyed this line about why liberals hate palin ( because she didn't abort her down syndrome child, yeah that makes sense )
"...And they hate Sarah Palin because deep down, they hate themselves for being who they are." Well I don't know about you but enjoy spitting on people who take care of mentally challenged. I find a deep abiding need in my liberal psyche to berate, harass, physically and verbal abuse anybody who helps or aids the retarded. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. Oh and for fun this was where the spitting thing came from: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...06/2617502.htm

To me, the most amazing thing about Blogging Heads is that I winding up liking all these arch conservatives - from Pinkerton to Goldbert to Kagan to Kaus to Conn ... almost all of them are funny, intelligent, human and even make a lot of sense in this setting. I viscerally despised Jonah Goldberg until I saw him on BHTV. Now, although I still disagree with him on many subjects, I always listen to and enjoy his diavlogs. So why is Ann Althouse like fingernails on the chalkboard?

Quoting Lyle: Depends on your definition of hung out. They know each other and Obama used Ayers and his home to further his political career. No they aren't buddies and Obama is a much, much better human being than Ayers, but they spent some time together and one can call that hanging out.

Obama and Ayers's connection was a couple of meet-and-greets/fundraisers and some overlapping time served on the board of a non-profit organization. "Hanging out" to me means being friends, spending time together for other than professional reasons. In any case, as far as I've ever heard, by the time Obama was active in politics, Ayers was an established -- even Establishment -- citizen, a university professor and a player in the political scene, with a clean record going back decades. I never saw what the big deal was about the two of them spending time together for whatever reason. This is the sort of thing that were it Sarah Palin, you'd be freaking out about "unfair attacks" and "guilt by association" and "witch hunts" and all manner of hysteria.

Quoting thouartgob: Oh and for fun this was where the spitting thing came from:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...06/2617502.htm

Careful. The word from on high on this site is that religion is a force for good.

No reason to listen to Goldberg when you can get the standard Liberal talking points from CBS/NBC/ABC/NPR/NY TIMES/WaPo and 100 other Liberal blogs who parrot the same party line. Nice try Althouse - but even you couldn't make her interesting.

Quoting rcocean: No reason to listen to Goldberg when you can get the standard Liberal talking points from CBS/NBC/ABC/NPR/NY TIMES/WaPo and 100 other Liberal blogs who parrot the same party line.

Nice try Althouse - but even you couldn't make her interesting.

Disagree. I find that she often has a lot different to say from liberal talking points. One area in particular where she stands out: her views on conservative Christians. She strikes me as having a deeper understanding and more sympathy than do most liberals. Speaking also as a liberal, I categorically reject the WaPo as liberal. It is an organ devoted to the Establishment. Its opinion pages are filled with a combination of neocons and people who think bipartisanship is the only option, no matter how much the Democrats have to yield to the far right. They just fired one of their best people and only actual liberals, Dan Froomkin. NPR I think often tends to be best described as Nice Polite Republicans. I can't bear listening to their newscasts anymore, although they do have a few good reporters. No comment on the network TV stations. They're so vapid I find them unwatchable. The NYT is fairly liberal on the

I usually find conservative talking heads to be cynical debaters but I like Ann Althouse and also Matt Lewis. Two nice exceptions to the rule.

Quoting bjkeefe: There is no shame in having a strong visceral reaction against Sarah Palin.

Correct; and lost in all this is the fact that it is Palin , not her liberal detractors, who has expressed the most hateful and intolerant sentiments. Her whole image is based on sneering contempt for millions and millions of her fellow Americans. To dabble in second grade logic for a second: she started it. There is also no shame in having a strong visercal reaction to Michelle Goldberg: I think it's what we know as love.

I thought she was more interesting in this dv than I've seen her in the past. You have to accept that the vast majority of people who can even be bothered to comment on these political stories tend to have some skin in the game.

I don't think Althouse is all that conservative. I think she just knows who butters her bread.

Quoting timba: To me, the most amazing thing about Blogging Heads is that I winding up liking all these arch conservatives - from Pinkerton to Goldbert to Kagan to Kaus to Conn ... almost all of them are funny, intelligent, human and even make a lot of sense in this setting. I viscerally despised Jonah Goldberg until I saw him on BHTV. Now, although I still disagree with him on many subjects, I always listen to and enjoy his diavlogs.

So why is Ann Althouse like fingernails on the chalkboard?

Yeah, I'm basically in the same boat as you. I think it's because actual conservatives really believe what they say and so have thoughtful justifications that can hold up under scrutiny. Althouse just seems to say whatever she thinks hasn't been said yet, no matter if it's justified or even coherent.

Quoting bjkeefe: Careful. The word from on high on this site is that religion is a force for good.

I heard that it wasn't a force for non-good or at the very least/very most, neutral :-) Oh by the way the saucers didn't land on the 5th ( X-Day ) and so now that Mcnamara died and the contents of Who's Who is continuing to dwindle at almost 1 Who per day, what design is now being revealed by events ?? Is Carrot-Top safe ?

The idea of Ann Althouse psychoanalyzing anybody - as she tries to with Michelle Goldberg in this diavlog - is preposterous. If there was ever a candidate for narcissistic personality disorder, it's Althouse.

Quoting bjkeefe: Fox News's Liz Trotta agrees with you (video).

Those of you who clicked on the link (or at least hovered over it) will have noticed that Sullivan is none to happy with his erstwhile colleague's latest column. Here's an earlier post from him that I just can't resist passing along, just for the succinctness and sheer wordsmithery.

The Not-So-Useful Idiot

Ross chronicles the meteoric rise and fall of the biggest farce in American politics in living memory. The column is yet another rehash of the Nixonian class resentments and Rovian cynicism that dominate what passes for the GOP's thinking classes: if only she'd waited and "boned up" on the issues, she could have had a real future. Er: How about nominating someone who actually knew something about some issues before she was picked? Or someone who could at least give a passing imitation of even being interested in them? Did that ever occur to Ross?

He mentions not a single policy issue, nor a single actual accomplishment this hood ornament of a candidate can be credited with. He mentions not one of her increasingly fantastic delusions and lies. But

at about 36 minutes: "crass, vulgar and mindless ambition married to complete emptiness and soullessness"

Quoting bjkeefe: Speaking also as a liberal, I categorically reject the WaPo as liberal. It is an organ devoted to the Establishment. Its opinion pages are filled with a combination of neocons and people who think bipartisanship is the only option, no matter how much the Democrats have to yield to the far right. They just fired one of their best people and only actual liberals, Dan Froomkin.

You need to give me a working definition of "liberal". If WaPo columnists like Marcus, Robinson, Broder, and Cohen aren't liberal - what are they?

Quoting thouartgob: I heard that it wasn't a force for non-good or at the very least/very most, neutral :-)

Oh by the way the saucers didn't land on the 5th ( X-Day ) and so now that Mcnamara died and the contents of Who's Who is continuing to dwindle at almost 1 Who per day, what design is now being revealed by events ?? Is Carrot-Top safe ?

Nice.

I don't care that Obama hung out with Ayers bjkeefe. I'm just saying they hung out together which they did.

Michelle was pwned when Althouse brought up Sullivan's allegations about trig and she laughed nervously and started stammering and said 'well it was a weird story" or seomthing to that effect. No it was a scurrilous rumor, and conspiracy theory spread by hyperpartisans out to spread scurillious rumors and conspiracy theories. Just like 95% of all the stories about Palin. Just like ALL of the ethics complainst against her. Baseless and groundless. Just like the idea that the FBI is investigating her. Baseless and groundless. Sorry, Michelle, got caught. And she is so rabidly hyper in her blatant hatred she offers little to no reasoning behind her hatred. I suppose she hasn't seen the various pictures of trig with the face cut out and someone else superimposed to make fun of either Palin or Trigs retardation. Or I supposed she hasn't seen the Huffington post article by Eric Sean Nelson where he says "Palin will run in 12 on More Retardation Platform and then proceeds to run through retard joke after retard joke. Or take again the Huffington Post article written by Michael Seitzman called "Sarah Palin Naked" where he talks about

Quoting nautirony: What I was trying to say is, quitting the governorship is indeed a risky and possibly stupid thing to do but I'd prefer the liberal bloggers to dwell on that rather than the unsubstantiated rumors so that they would not give Palin an opportunity to play victim (and motivate her base even more).

Ah. Okay. Sorry for misunderstanding. To be fair, you can hardly blame humans for speculating when something like this comes from out of nowhere, no good reasons are given, and no questions by the press are permitted.

I don't want to bet on a Palin victory in '12. I am not even sure if she would run. I was only providing scenarios based on a lot of ifs...

Okay.

Quoting bjkeefe: ... Ace of Spades (CPAC Blogger of the Year in 2007) said [last Friday --bjk], "And that is that. It's over. You can't resign from a governorship and then run for higher office." ...

Quoting bjkeefe: "She Scoots to Conquer: Rightbloggers Celebrate Sarah Palin's Latest Masterstroke" is now available.

[...]

Bonus: the post includes coverage of the True Believers bickering with the "Vichy Republicans" who had earlier dared to comment negatively on Palin's Big Quit.

Tying these two threads together, here's Ace today (via), in Comment #324 (!) of 766 so far (!!) on his own site:

It's this insane idea that if you want something to happen, you will also of course agree that it WILL happen, and if you don't agree it will happen, obviously you don't wnat it to happen.

[...]

And if you do not believe that Sarah Palin has some double-secret probation plan for the presidency, you must hate her too, and you're rooting against her, and cheering for the other side.

[...]

Stop jumping to claim some one is not just wrong but actively malicious.

It's insane. It's fruit fucking loops. and it's tiresome.

And I do think I am taking off the week. You guys only seem to want to talk about sarah palin and furthermore you

He's somewhat human y'know.

What is it with conservatives accusing liberals of "hating" people? First, hate is not the same thing as contempt. Contempt is common, hate not so much. Second, if people hate Rush Limbaugh or whoever, maybe we actually have a good reason for that. We can all agree some people deserve to be hated (insert Godwin's Law here). Third, that accusation ain't the conversation stopper people think it is. So what if we do? Finally, when people go off about boring, mild-mannered nerds like Kos or Al Franken being "full of hate" or whatever they lose all credibility and just sound like hissy-fitting whiny crybabies.

Quoting rcocean: He's somewhat human y'know.

I'd omit "somewhat." All I meant in expressing my disappointment is that I found him to be a good blogger who could make me think even if I disagreed with him or didn't buy his argument. So far, his columns have been mundane and his arguments fairly ludicrous.

Michelle, Forget about it! You criticize Sarah Palin for her ineptitude and her overuse of 'the wink'. BUT you're arguing this with ANN ALTHOUSE who practices all of Sarah's tricks. When Ann fails in her argument, she always resorts to the little giggle and coyness. Ann Althouse is a giggling pixie version of Ann Coulter.

Quoting piscivorous: You will also notice that the quote was in the context of his time as a comedian by job description that does make him a clown does it not.

Do you really think that's what Sen. Inhofe is trying to say? If you do, are you interested in buying the Brooklyn Bridge? Here is the quote: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...0_WASHIN285450

“I’ll tell you what a lot of people are thinking, and that is it looks like things are going to be over and we are going to get the clown from Minnesota,’’ he said....

Asked if he was referring to Al Franken as the clown from Minnesota, Inhofe confirmed he was.

“I didn’t mean to be disrespectful. I don’t know the guy, but … for a living he is a clown,’’ the senator said.

“That’s what he does for a living.’’

By Inhofe's wiggle-definition, we should continue referring to Reagan as a "B-movie actor" and Arnold as a "Bodybuilder".

Quoting bjkeefe: I'd omit "somewhat."

All I meant in expressing my disappointment is that I found him to be a good blogger who could make me think even if I disagreed with him or didn't buy his argument. So far, his columns have been mundane and his arguments fairly ludicrous.

Wow, you like Bill more than I do. I think Kristol's part of a secret CIA experiment to determine how out-of-touch and wrong you can be about just about everything and still remain editor of weekly magazine and a TV talking head. That he's supporting Palin makes me very nervous. Its like agreeing with Bill Shrum.

Quoting jr565: Just like the idea that the FBI is investigating her. Baseless and groundless.

So far as I saw anywhere, and that includes Shannyn Moore's posts, no one ever said "FBI." What people were saying, at least overwhelmingly most of them, was along the lines of "my guess is some scandal is coming down the pike." The most specific thing I ever saw was speculation about that sports center in Wasilla being connected to the construction of her house. But no agency named.

I suppose she hasn't seen the various pictures of trig with the face cut out and someone else superimposed to make fun of either Palin or Trigs retardation.

I have never seen any image, or words around any image, that in any way suggested the idea was to make fun of Trig or kids with Down's Syndrome. The initial one I saw put in the face of a radio talk show host who was apparently a long-time Palin fanboy, which was easily seen as making fun of this relationship. Following ones were also riffing on Palin's use of Trig as a campaign prop -- accept that she overused Trig as a

Madness. Link me a recent clip of AA going Coulter on some topic. Edit: for one thing, AA seems very much an atheist whereas Coulter comes off as a crazy fundie Xtian.

Quoting rcocean: Wow, you like Bill more than I do. I think Kristol's part of a secret CIA experiment to determine how out-of-touch and wrong you can be about just about everything and still remain editor of weekly magazine and a TV talking head.

That he's supporting Palin makes me very nervous. Its like agreeing with Bill Shrum.

Sorry, we're misunderstanding each other. I was talking there about Ross Douthat, not Bill Kristol. I have zero respect for Kristol.

Quoting nautirony: By Inhofe's wiggle-definition, we should continue referring to Reagan as a "B-movie actor" and Arnold as a "Bodybuilder".

And Sarah Palin as "the runner-up of that beauty pageant."

I guess my point was that it seems Palin really doesn't matter all that much to people outside of the chattering class.

Quoting rcocean: You need to give me a working definition of "liberal". If WaPo columnists like Marcus, Robinson, Broder, and Cohen aren't liberal - what are they?

Don't know Marcus. Robinson I'd call a liberal. Broder and Cohen epitomize the inside-the-Beltway establishment that fetishizes bipartisanship and thinks everything would be just peachy if when the Democrats hold power, they do everything to cater to Republican whims, and when the Democrats are out of power, they so everything they can to loyally support the GOP president.

Quoting themightypuck: I guess my point was that it seems Palin really doesn't matter all that much to people outside of the chattering class.

Whether or not this is true, I don't follow your reasoning from the Twitter numbers to support your point, especially the part about her low "following" number and "following=active."

Quoting Lyle: I don't care that Obama hung out with Ayers bjkeefe. I'm just saying they hung out together which they did.

Man, your persistence with trying to salvage some points out of an utterly different claim never fails to amaze me. Remember the original point? Of course you don't. You said that Palin did not speak negatively and I said that I did not think "palling around with terrorists" could be seen as anything but. Why is it so hard for you to keep a thought in your head from one post to the next?

Why do you project how you view the world on to other people bjkeefe? I'm not trying to score points. I don't take posting at bh.tv personally. I'm not trying to win or beat anyone down. You're a guy who responds to people with statements like: I'll remember that for the record. We don't all think like you and aren't at war with anybody. It is all just a discussion in mine eyes. Palin also criticized Obama with the Ayers quote, not the "other America". We weren't talking about her criticizing Obama, but rather she has heavily criticized "liberal America".

And don't forget Reagan as "illegal arms-dealer to Iran", to say nothing of his early support of the Mujahadeen where a young Osama Bin Laden served his military apprenticeship.

I am not attempting to make an argument since Twitter is (a) new and (b) not something I do. That said, it is interesting that the people are far more interested in the Gov. of California who cannot run than the Gov. of Alaska who can. My suspicion is that people are interested in Arnold because at this moment he matters. It is possible that Palin could somehow matter in the future but I doubt it.

I find it fascinating just how much Sarah Palin bothers liberal feminists. She's like their kryptonite.

Quoting themightypuck: I am not attempting to make an argument since Twitter is (a) new and (b) not something I do. That said, it is interesting that the people are far more interested in the Gov. of California who cannot run than the Gov. of Alaska who can. My suspicion is that people are interested in Arnold because at this moment he matters. It is possible that Palin could somehow matter in the future but I doubt it.

Okay. That much I follow. No biggie about the specifics, if you don't feel like elaborating. I think your overall observation does say something, though -- I would not have predicted that Schwarzenegger would have an order of magnitude more followers than Palin. I wonder how much of that is explained by your earlier hypothesis (Palin only of interest to political junkies/insiders), and how much is explained by other reasons; e.g., does Schwarzenegger have better content? And, is part of his following due to his past career as a movie star? And, are Palin's fans significantly more likely to have nothing to do with the Twitter?

Quoting Lyle: Why do you project how you view the world on to other people bjkeefe? I'm not trying to score points. I don't take posting at bh.tv personally. I'm not trying to win or beat anyone down

Whatever you say, Lial.

Palin also criticized Obama with the Ayers quote, not the "other America". We weren't talking about her criticizing Obama, but rather she has heavily criticized "liberal America".

You're so far unplugged from reality I'm going to drop this.

Quoting MikeDrew: I find it fascinating just how much Sarah Palin bothers liberal feminists. She's like their kryptonite.

I think if I were a woman and a feminist, I'd be pretty bothered by her, too. I'm not sure why conservatives fail to get why she is so infuriating in this regard -- she's anti-choice, she's a ditz, she demands special treatment, she whines about the slightest bit of criticism, she flirted as a part of her campaign for VP, including during the VP debate, she takes pride in her own ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity, ... the list goes on and on, and that's just what I can tell as a guy. The whole impression is that she thinks she can get by on a wink and a smile and never wants to do any work. Seems to me she acts exactly opposite to the way you'd like a standard-bearer to act.

I would say this is rather hyper and rabid in its hatred of the 'haters' itself. Sarah Palin is just not worthy of the passions she stirs on all sides. She is a non-force in national politics.

One very plausible reason for Palin's low numbers is she just started. Also, twitter numbers probably don't mean that much this far out from an election. That said, given that Palin specifically mentioned Twitter in her resignation speech I was expecting a bigger party there.

I'm not saying she shouldn't bother people -- she bothers the hell out of me too. But she bothers me more or less on par with the amount a lot of different Republicans and conservatives bother me, if sometimes in a unique way. (Though probably my most-bothered Sarah Palin moment was of a piece with one of my most-bothered Rudy Giuliani moments, when they each mocked Obama at the RNC for his organizing work.) The thing I find fascinating is the quality almost of awe at their own visceral reaction to her as well as the barely-contained rage at her presentation evinced as I mentioned largely by liberals and feminists, usually (though not necessarily) women. But I find many things about feminists and most women fascinating in any case, so this is broadly consistent.

Quoting MikeDrew: I'm not saying she shouldn't bother people -- she bothers the hell out of me too. But she bothers me more or less on par with the amount a lot of different Republicans and conservatives bother me, if sometimes in a unique way. (Though probably my most-bothered Sarah Palin moment was of a piece with one of my most-bothered Rudy Giuliani moments, when they each mocked Obama at the RNC for his organizing work.)

The thing I find fascinating is the quality almost of awe at their own visceral reaction to her as well as the barely-contained rage at her presentation evinced as I mentioned largely by liberals and feminists, usually (though not necessarily) women. But I find many things about feminists and most women fascinating in any case, so this is broadly consistent.

Well, I've said all I can guess at concerning what bothers feminists about her so much. I'd observe that if you acknowledge that she bothers you "sometimes in a unique way," you've at least got a vague sense that there is plausibly something there that would bother someone else. Personally, she bothers me in the same way

Quoting bjkeefe: Well, I've said all I can guess at concerning what bothers feminists about her so much. I'd observe that if you acknowledge that she bothers you "sometimes in a unique way," you've at least got a vague sense that there is plausibly something there that would bother someone else.

Personally, she bothers me in the same way that George W. Bush bothered me and the way some of the loudmouths on Fox and talk radio bother me -- she symbolizes (epitomizes?) the arrogance of ignorance, the intellectual laziness, the petty-minded resentment of the Very Idea that some people know more about things than she does, and the consequent us-vs-them attitude towards such people. She, like Bush, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc., is not doing something that a lot of other conservatives don't also do, but it's just carried to such an extreme. And ultimately, all this just-folks nonsense comes across as utterly phony.

You’ve heard about some of these PET PROJECTS they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like FRUIT FLY research in PARIS, FRANCE. I kid you not. Which is also

Quoting bjkeefe: ... And ultimately, all this just-folks nonsense comes across as utterly phony.

To that end, I'm reminded of this instructive piece.

Quoting claymisher: You’ve heard about some of these PET PROJECTS they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like FRUIT FLY research in PARIS, FRANCE. I kid you not.

Which is also know as "science."

Yes, I hate any politician who would talk like that, and everybody else should too.

Exactly right. A perfect example of her being wrong-headed, and proud of it. Contemptible.

Quoting PaulL: Maybe I get that impression from progressive seers such as Paul Krugman
Global warming “deniers” are committing “treason” against the planet
Or Janeane Garofalo

A sweet example of GOP tolerance I'm feeling the love guys and Sarah does as well I'll bet.

Quoting bjkeefe: if you acknowledge that she bothers you "sometimes in a unique way," you've at least got a vague sense that there is plausibly something there that would bother someone else.

Personally, she bothers me in the same way that George W. Bush bothered me

Obviously I have at least a vague sense that she bothers people, since my comment was all about how palpably she bothers people. I agree that what is bothersome about her is quite similar to what was bothersome about George Bush, at least until he actually started committing historically bothersome crimes in office. My point is that the reaction of feminists and some other liberals to Palin is of a different species than the same people's reaction to Bush as I remember it, and I find this fascinating -- by which unless you are assuming I am hostile to such people there is no reason for you to assume I mean anything other than that I am fascinated by it, particularly not that I am saying that the reaction is illegitimate necessarily.

Quoting bjkeefe: Broder and Cohen epitomize the inside-the-Beltway establishment ...

More on this, really well said, by Jon Chait.

Quoting MikeDrew: ... there is no reason for you to assume I mean anything other than that I am fascinated by it, particularly not that I am saying that the reaction is illegitimate necessarily.

Ah, yes. Thanks for clarifying. There is a tendency among some people (academics) I know to say "I am fascinated by ..." to mean "I find it really stupid/offensive/obnoxious that ..."

Quoting claymisher: What is it with conservatives accusing liberals of "hating" people? First, hate is not the same thing as contempt. Contempt is common, hate not so much.

Hate can be the same thing as contempt. Sometimes you can have both hate and contempt. What do you call "wanting to destroy with words". Is that not hate? But note the chapter title. "Analyzing why Michelle hates Sarah Palin". Unless it was being ironic or sarcastic, even blogginheads is characterizing it as hate. I think Michelle even says the word hate. Now, this is not the same thing as hatred of someone for their skin tone or because their name is Goldberg and Michelle may not be wishing actual death on Sarah Palin. But she iscertainly wishing she is destroyed both politically and socially and is doing her best to get her cuts in. Which is fine. She's an attack dog. But she's not a particularly perceptive attack dog, and can't even articulate why she hates her subject so. It's her shallow mind hearing the talking points directed by her clique which she then regurgitates almost without thinking into an attack solely designed to hurt. She says

Quoting bjkeefe: Thanks for clarifying. There is a tendency among some people (academics) I know to say "I am fascinated by ..." to mean "I find it really stupid/offensive/obnoxious that ..."

Yourself included, apparently. Maybe now you can use the word when the situation matches its actual meaning rather than an embittered, sarcastic corruption of it.

Quoting bjkeefe: So far as I saw anywhere, and that includes Shannyn Moore's posts, no one ever said "FBI." What people were saying, at least overwhelmingly most of them, was along the lines of "my guess is some scandal is coming down the pike." The most specific thing I ever saw was speculation about that sports center in Wasilla being connected to the construction of her house. But no agency named.

The rumor was going around that the feds were sniffing around and that a scandal was brewing the Feds is the FBI.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7018263.story

I have never seen any image, or words around any image, that in any way suggested the idea was to make fun of Trig or kids with Down's Syndrome. The initial one I saw put in the face of a radio talk show host who was apparently a long-time Palin fanboy, which was easily seen as making fun of this relationship. Following ones were also riffing on Palin's use of Trig as a campaign prop -- accept that she overused Trig as a prop or don't, but that was the intent of the images. The third round, of course, was in response

I don't mind Althouse, she's better than that damn Matt Lewis with his silly ideas about 'real conservatives' and his Russell Kirk fetish.

Carrie Prejean's trajectory seems to be aligning itself with Sarah's. Why not. If palin supporters want to wear the mantle of female empowerment I think this would be a fine way for them to show us intolerant liberals a thing or two.

Quoting jr565: And Hannity, is mild mannered and corteous.

ROFL.

Quoting Ocean: I'm not sure how much of what Ann defends reflects what she actually believes. Many times she's just looking for some weakness in the other person's (whomever she is interacting with) argument or just finding the other side of the coin. It seems to me she is doing what lawyers are supposed to be good at doing. She's good at it even if we disagree with her arguments.

I was enjoying Ann's take on things and the effect it had on Ms. Goldberg in the beginning. Her lawyerly tendencies did make for an interesting diavlog. But in the end she falls into her favorite tendencies ( at least in her appearances on BHTV ). Pardon my french, but the bug up her ass about clinton continues to wiggle to this day for a reason known only to her. She continues find little fault or to be charmed by conservatives hypocrisies and blather. Conservatives only have positive things to say, Palin never said negative things ?? These statements stretch credulity and make it difficult to wade through the rest of the diavlog. If she is acting as a "defense

Quoting bjkeefe: ROFL.

What I meant by that (Hannity is mild mannered and courteous) is that he unlike say Michael Savage is not screaming like a madman. He still delivers pretty vicious attacks but often does so smiling and in a courteous manner. Which was the whole point of dismissing the idea that just because Kos is mild mannered that he somehow can't also be a vicious prick.

Quoting jr565: The rumor was going around ...that the feds were sniffing around and that a scandal was brewing the Feds is the FBI.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7018263.story

Showing me an article that says the FBI denies they are investigating is not showing me any examples of people saying specifically that the FBI was pursuing an investigation. I'll grant that the unusual denial by the FBI indicates something -- more favorable treatment for Palin, for one. Wouldn't it be nice if they felt compelled to extend this courtesy to everyone else around whom rumors swirl? Anyway, to close this segment out, unless you can show me something more substantive than vague generalizations like the ones in that LA Times post, I don't see the point in discussing this further. I'm confident you've looked for something more "horrific" and have been unable to find it. I expect the worst you've been able to come up with is some random blogger making the same connection that the LAT article did; e.g.; "There are FBI investigations going on in Alaska. I wonder if Palin's abrupt resignation has anything to do with this?"

Ok, you've now suggested that there were at least three rounds of this, when

(Continued from here.)

I saw the cached site which had his name displayed, so I dindn't remember it. But dude, you are on every bloggingheads discussion and respond to nearly every post. And I see you have a blog of your own (which seems to be almost 100% complete lefty and democrat talking points. Who is the obsessive one?

If you're honest about it, you'll realize that the postings on my blog are considerably more varied than just "lefty and democrat [sic] talking points." Just scroll down and look at the list of labels in the sidebar to see this. And, if you're honest about it, you'll realize that if I am in on "every bloggingheads discussion," then it cannot possibly be the case that I am always talking about the same thing, given the wide spread of topics addressed on this site. As to obsessive, nah. I'll cop to being a blabbermouth, though.

I don't remember any where near the amount of sexist commentary talking about how we'd like to bed Hillary Clinton when she was running. Then again she was a hag, so maybe that explains it.

Well, there goes whatever moral standing you might have had for complaining

Quoting themightypuck: I was looking at the following v followers number based on an assumption on my part that following = active and followers = anyone that ever looked. In any case, Arnold's followers number is over half a million.

The number to compare would be followers. Following is the number of people she (or Arnold) is following. That Arnold has so many more of both probably just shows that his account has been more active or is being used differently.

Quoting MikeDrew: Yourself included, apparently. Maybe now you can use the word when the situation matches its actual meaning rather than an embittered, sarcastic corruption of it.

Okay, Mr. Language Police.

Quoting jr565: What I meant by that (Hannity is mild mannered and courteous) is that he unlike say Michael Savage is not screaming like a madman.

Sorry. Clarification: FAIL. Just because Hannity does not spend all his time screaming does not make him "mild mannered and courteous." That guy is one of the most impolite, offensive, pigheaded, lying sacks of shit on TV or radio today.

Quoting bjkeefe: ... Sullivan is none to happy with his erstwhile colleague's latest column.

And here, via AS, are two more solid critiques of Ross's column, from Matt Yglesias and Freddie DeBoer, specifically rebutting Ross's class warfare whining.

Quoting themightypuck: One very plausible reason for Palin's low numbers is she just started.

Agreed. Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis (I have no idea when the respective governors started Twittering).

Also, twitter numbers probably don't mean that much this far out from an election.

Disagree. If they mean anything, they mean something about interest, it seems to me. At least among that slice of the population that cares about Twitter and politics -- admittedly, probably a pretty narrow slice.

That said, given that Palin specifically mentioned Twitter in her resignation speech I was expecting a bigger party there.

I suspect (by projection) that a mention by someone that "I've been Twittering about this" causes a fair amount of people to visit the Twitter page, but not necessarily to sign up to follow that person. There are probably at least as many people whose Twitter pages I check regularly whom I choose not to follow as those whom I do follow, just to keep the incoming stream down below fire hose levels. In other words, when something relevant to X happens, I'll go see if X tweeted about it, but I don't care to have the people I do follow swamped by random self-promotion and navel-gazing

Quoting bjkeefe: And here, via AS, are two more solid critiques of Ross's column, from Matt Yglesias and Freddie DeBoer, specifically rebutting Ross's class warfare whining.

My take on RD's column is that he's internalized a little class bigotry himself: Even though her parents have college degrees and she has a degree, and she has two houses, two boats, and a plane(!), he still identifies Palin's poor speaking skills and sloppy thinking with sub-median-income proles.

Quoting bjkeefe: And here, via AS, are two more solid critiques of Ross's column, from Matt Yglesias and Freddie DeBoer, specifically rebutting Ross's class warfare whining.

Conor Friedersdorf had a good one too -- On Class, Politics, and Bootstraps

Quoting claymisher: My take on RD's column is that he's internalized a little class bigotry himself: Even though her parents have college degrees and she has a degree, and she has two houses, two boats, and a plane(!), he still identifies Palin's poor speaking skills and sloppy thinking with sub-median-income proles.

His column struck me as pretty similar to what he wrote about her at various times during the election, and I think it shows a blind spot that he has (as I made reference to in the gossip thread). Basically -- and this probably relates to him getting picked as NYT columnist -- he lives in a elite world and is surrounded primarily by people who also do. His particular segment of the elite world is mainly urban and part of liberal Blue America (the part of Blue America that David Brooks also lives in and likes to talk about), and he sees that as The Elite and has inculcated its values and snobbery as definitive. So he sees people being classist and snobby about the Palins and their supporters from class-based perspectives (which I've seen) and thus

Quoting bjkeefe: Sorry. Clarification: FAIL.

Just because Hannity does not spend all his time screaming does not make him "mild mannered and courteous." That guy is one of the most impolite, offensive, pigheaded, lying sacks of shit on TV or radio today.

I disagree with you on the "impolite". The idea that he is a lying sack of shit may or may not be true, depending on where you're coming from. How you personally feel about his views doesnt' change how he presents himself on tv (have never listened to him on radio so perhaps he's a bit different there). Even to his enemies while on his show he is respectful.It doesn't mean he isn't also vicious and attempting to get in his digs.

Quoting stephanie: Conor Friedersdorf had a good one too -- On Class, Politics, and Bootstraps

Another good one. Thanks. This passage nails it:

To sum up, it seems clear to me that Sarah Palin has been criticized unfairly at times, sometimes offensively so -- and equally clear to me that every candidate on a presidential ticket in my lifetime has been mocked and misrepresented. Anyone who doubts that others have faced similarly offensive attacks have too short a memory.

The difference, of course, is that Palin spends all of her time playing the role of the victim in response. Ultimately, she will never attract more than a narrow slice of the population with this approach. Even leaving aside questions about fitness for office, you can't win by whining.

Quoting jr565: I disagree with you on the "impolite". [...] Even to his enemies while on his show he is respectful.It doesn't mean he isn't also vicious and attempting to get in his digs.

It is my impression that to the extent that he even has people on who disagree with him anymore, he does not let such people speak without frequently interrupting them, talking over them, changing the subject or cutting to commercials when he has no good answer, etc. But as long as you're acknowledging that he's "vicious," we can probably leave it there.

Quoting bjkeefe: The difference, of course, is that Palin spends all of her time playing the role of the victim in response. Ultimately, she will never attract more than a narrow slice of the population with this approach. Even leaving aside questions about fitness for office, you can't win by whining.

Yup. To the extent that people dislike her because they are scared of her effect (which I think was a part of it soon after she came to prominence, before it was clear that she would be a disaster and when she briefly had a Teflon feel, although it was never the whole reason), I think that can be let go. I tend to think that her contribution to the national dialogue is a negative one, but she's amusing, highlights some of the inherent conflicts in the Republican Party (and it would be hilarious to watch Romney et al. run against her), and seems to pose no actual threat (IMO), so I'm going to be rather sorry if she doesn't run. Quitting as governor of AK really is an idiotic move if she wants to, though, especially in the way it was done (as everyone

Quoting stephanie: What he misses, weirdly, is that the real attack isn't the casual snobbery of certain elements of liberal America or even the dislike of Palin that some within it feel extremely strongly, but the resentment and scapegoating that many in Red America feel for their stereotype of Blue America (the non-real Americans). This has typically been how the attack went (see Pat Buchanan in various incarnations, among others) and the Palin thing was just a replay.

But Ross isn't in that world, he doesn't really experience the hatred coming from the Palin-supporting camp, so he fails to see how cleverly it was stoked from the very beginning and sees the snobbiness and dismissive remarks that he probably is surrounded with as the main thing.

Excellent observation. I think this applies, as well, to many of the prominent conservative pundits -- most of them have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths, gone to the best schools, gotten good jobs at least partly through family connections, and have no more idea about the great unwashed masses than any of their liberal counterparts do. I would be interested to see

Quoting stephanie: [...]

Agreed. Your point about contributions to the national dialog brings something to mind that I've been toying with for a while now. I wonder if Sarah Palin's non-stop griping about her supposed mistreatment by "the media" acted as a final straw of sorts. There has been a growing awareness among liberals that the right-wing noise machine has had enormous success over the past few decades in working the refs -- intimidating mainstream news outlets into paranoia about being perceived as having a "liberal bias, shifting the boundaries of what is considered acceptable discourse on the TV yakfests, etc. In many ways, the revulsion Palin provokes is less about her as an actual individual, and more about what she epitomizes as a symbol, and I think it's likely that this is one of those ways. She used a familiar rightwing tactic, but she used it too much, and as a consequence, she gave the pushback something to crystallize around.

Quoting bjkeefe: She used a familiar rightwing tactic, but she used it too much, and as a consequence, she gave the pushback something to crystallize around.

Following up on this, here is a clip of Shannyn Moore talking about this idea, and others, on KO's show.

Quoting bjkeefe: Robinson I'd call a liberal.

However, it is worth keeping this aspect in mind (as contrasted to Dan Froomkin).

Quoting bjkeefe: Oh, and Bill Kristol applauded it, and you know what that means: kiss of death.

And speaking of Irving's boy, here is a proper look at his latest piece of dumbassery. Looks like a glimmer of dawning self-awareness, though. Maybe?

I know a lot people have commented on this but I have to add my two cents worth. Anne Althouse I don't know if you read this stuff but are you serious?
Part of me wants to believe Anne is being contrary just for the sake of it.
Palin is not fit to be dog catcher let alone President. She's a professional "victim". The fact that Atlhouse is defending this woman is so wrong and shows that she, Althouse, is an idiot. She's a professor of law and she defends this train wreck called Sarah Palin. I can't believe she thinks Palin is going to run for president. OK how do you spin quitting? She quit being governor during the worse recession since the great depression. Althouse has totally lost it here, she has made a mistake and then refuses to admit that she is wrong. She seems to think that by constantly supporting Palin that she will have some credibility in what is one of the worse things any perspective presidential candidate could do. Quit. Edwards is a slime bag as is Sanford. Palin is a different kind fo sleazy. Althouse now

Quoting jr565: ... ridicule ... attack ... attack ... ridicule ... anything goes ... bringing down the discourse and character assassinating people ... Its an almost constant narrative ... hit piece. Journalists control the story ... excessive and beyond the pale ... a grotesque character assassination ... the character assassinating ... negative stories ...

Yeah, I know what you mean. Shocking, isn't it? (h/t: Paul Slansky)

Re: Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse I am a bit amazed by Michelle's depth of emotion about Palin. Yes, Sarah Palin is a lightweight as a candidate, an undereducated, uninformed overachiever and clearly not prime presidential timber. But "Jeez Louise" what is there about Palin that pushes your buttons so dramatically Michelle? I find it hard to see how Palin as a failed V.P. candidate can generate that level of passionate hate. It strikes me as disproportionate and unhealthy. Your emotion is more understandable when directed at G.W. Bush since he was a two term POTUS. Michelle, I understand you are animated in your opinions but your reaction to Palin is... well, a bit over the top. Concerning the bloggingheads mix of Michelle and Ann. I quite enjoy their bloggingheads sessions together and with other interlocutors.

Quoting bjkeefe: No more starbursts for Lowry, for example.

Also:

In all the speculation about why Sarah Palin quit the Alaska governorship, no one — right or left, supportive or critical, rational or conspiratorial — has credited her stated reason that she had to do it for the sake of Alaska.

It’s just too absurd. Palin mentioned Alaska or Alaskans 34 times in a 17-minute statement that must be a new record in the history of protesting too much. Palin says she hates politics as usual, and true to her word, on July 3 she staged a spectacle in politics as unusual. But she still proved adept at the traditional political art of extreme disingenuousness.

[...]

Sarah Palin’s words served only to throw a tissue of rationalization over a calculated choice made in her personal self-interest. [...]

[...]

[...] Conservatives loved her for the same reason. She had a true magnetism. The more she repelled one side, the more she attracted the other.

This push-pull dynamic will hold Palin up for a long time, but it can’t propel her into the presidency. For that she needs substance, not the hackneyed sound bites she clings to for dear life. For that she needs

Quoting T.Moran: I know a lot people have commented on this but I have to add my two cents worth. Anne Althouse I don't know if you read this stuff but are you serious?
Part of me wants to believe Anne is being contrary just for the sake of it.
Palin is not fit to be dog catcher let alone President. She's a professional "victim". The fact that Atlhouse is defending this woman is so wrong and shows that she, Althouse, is an idiot. She's a professor of law and she defends this train wreck called Sarah Palin. I can't believe she thinks Palin is going to run for president. OK how do you spin quitting? She quit being governor during the worse recession since the great depression.

Althouse has totally lost it here, she has made a mistake and then refuses to admit that she is wrong. She seems to think that by constantly supporting Palin that she will have some credibility in what is one of the worse things any perspective presidential candidate could do. Quit.

Last year AA described herself as adopting a persona in the manner of a performance artist. I think

About hating Sarah Palin: "Envy is more implacable than hatred" La Rochefoucald

Quoting bjkeefe: (Continued from here.)

If you're honest about it, you'll realize that the postings on my blog are considerably more varied than just "lefty and democrat [sic] talking points." Just scroll down and look at the list of labels in the sidebar to see this. And, if you're honest about it, you'll realize that if I am in on "every bloggingheads discussion," then it cannot possibly be the case that I am always talking about the same thing, given the wide spread of topics addressed on this site.

Well your discussion of Boz Scaggs is apolitical I suppose. But there is a near 100% certainty that wahtever you post on the blog that is political will be right out of the lib/democrat playbook and not at all critical of say dems in general (unless of course a dem strays from liberal orthodoxy in which case he would need to be punished). And plenty of snark against Sarah Palin. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but its kind of hard to take you seriously as anything but an ideologue for the left when you weigh in on political matters.

As to obsessive, nah. I'll

Quoting jr565: I'm not going to have to admit that.

Then we have little left to discuss.

Your bias carries over to nearly every comment you make on this blog ...

Just wish that, since you are so keen on flooding the boards so much you weren't so one note.

I find your lack of self-awareness disturbing.

Quoting TheMexican: About hating Sarah Palin:

"Envy is more implacable than hatred"

La Rochefoucald

Sounds like a potential problem. Lemme know when you find someone who is envious of Sarah Palin.

Quoting bjkeefe: I find your lack of self-awareness disturbing.

To that end, jr565, see how much of yourself you recognize here. You too, Lyle, given that Col. Mustard is your new hero. [Added] And be sure to read the comments, too.

Palin came out as little Miss Barracuda and insulted and demonized roughly half of the country pulling out every one of the tired Democrat cliches that the Republicans could muster. Ontop of the nastiness of things she said, she didn't even come to the fight with even an ounce of integrity or intellectual acumen. The hardcore Right showered her praise and immediately vaulted her to the hopeful future candidate while many of their more thoughtful supporters (Frum, Buckley etc.) decided to take a pass. When the public decided (including many Republicans) that she was not only unqualified, but ultimately just an empty-headed puppet spouting FoxNews soundbites, she retreated behind the skirts of her party to cry "liberal media" and make herself the victim, while continuing to use every opportunity to self-promote. I'll never understand why conservatives have such a tough time understanding the reaction Palin got. How do the people of Amity Isle feel about the shark in the movie "Jaws?" Nobody likes being called bad Americans. If a Democrat goes anywhere near that sort of a statement with regards to Red State America, we see

Quoting bjkeefe: Lemme know when you find someone who is envious of Sarah Palin.

Liberals and especially feminists. Isn't it obvious?

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Palin came out as little Miss Barracuda and insulted and demonized roughly half of the country pulling out every one of the tired Democrat cliches that the Republicans could muster. Ontop of the nastiness of things she said, she didn't even come to the fight with even an ounce of integrity or intellectual acumen. The hardcore Right showered her praise and immediately vaulted her to the hopeful future candidate while many of their more thoughtful supporters (Frum, Buckley etc.) decided to take a pass. When the public decided (including many Republicans) that she was not only unqualified, but ultimately just an empty-headed puppet spouting FoxNews soundbites, she retreated behind the skirts of her party to cry "liberal media" and make herself the victim, while continuing to use every opportunity to self-promote. I'll never understand why conservatives have such a tough time understanding the reaction Palin got. How do the people of Amity Isle feel about the shark in the movie "Jaws?" Nobody likes being called bad Americans. If a Democrat goes anywhere near that sort of a statement with regards to Red State America, we see

I see your point. That's why I think that her stated positions here reflect the lawyer practicing/displaying skill in defending the other side of the argument mixed what her opinions really are. Sometimes it's difficult to identify what she's doing, but you can see the patterns over time. She is very smart.

'implementing socialist economics' Do you mean what Palin has been doing in Alaska ? Taking money from the oil companies - because the "means of production" are publicly owned - and handing it out to anyone in the state who draws breath ? Meanwhile, anyone who calls Obama's Keynesian policies "socialist" is a bonafide moron. Totally fucking stupid. It really IS that simple. Palin's run a far more "socialist" scheme in Alaska than Obama would ever dream of...
(Debunking rightwing drivel-mongers is far too easy.)

Quoting bjkeefe: Ah, yes. Thanks for clarifying. There is a tendency among some people (academics) I know to say "I am fascinated by ..." to mean "I find it really stupid/offensive/obnoxious that ..."

Related.

Shorter Ocean:

Ann Althouse is actually smart. It's just really hard to tell.

Quoting bjkeefe: Shorter Ocean:

Ann Althouse is actually smart. It's just really hard to tell.

LOL! I didn't say that!

Quoting jr565: ... ridicule ... attack ... attack ... ridicule ... anything goes ... bringing down the discourse and character assassinating people ... Its an almost constant narrative ... hit piece. Journalists control the story ... excessive and beyond the pale ... a grotesque character assassination ... the character assassinating ... negative stories ...

Quoting bjkeefe: Yeah, I know what you mean. Shocking, isn't it?

Also.

Quoting Ocean: LOL! I didn't say that!

;^)

Quoting claymisher: Let's hope 20 years from now Republicans are celebrating married gay couples with adopted children.

A nice thought. Imagine if Sarah Palin came out of the closet and married a female friend. Think that would do it?

Quoting bjkeefe:

Quoting bjkeefe: ... Sullivan is none to happy with his erstwhile colleague's latest column.

And here, via AS, are two more solid critiques of Ross's column, from Matt Yglesias and Freddie DeBoer, specifically rebutting Ross's class warfare whining.

Another good one, from Blue Texan. Points for succinctness and linkage. (Stand by for howling about a link to FDL from a certain someone in 5..., 4..., 3...)

Quoting jr565: ... ridicule ... attack ... attack ... ridicule ... anything goes ... bringing down the discourse and character assassinating people ... Its an almost constant narrative ... hit piece. Journalists control the story ... excessive and beyond the pale ... a grotesque character assassination ... the character assassinating ... negative stories ...

Quoting bjkeefe: Yeah, I know what you mean. Shocking, isn't it?

Quoting bjkeefe: Also.

Also:

The first strange sight in Washington will be Senator Franken sitting on the Judiciary Committee hearings for Sonia Sotomayor. As USA Today remembered, Franken played Sen. Paul Simon in a 1991 skit on the Clarence Thomas-Anita Hill hearings. I'm guessing he won't choose to wear a Simon-style bow tie. --Tim Graham, Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center.

... Franken and thug/goon party changed the rules, pulled ballots out of their ass and stole the election. Al Franken? Is he even normal? Sane? --Pamela Geller, whose post features about the one millionth copy of a Stuart Smalley picture

Mr. Franken now goes to the Senate having effectively stolen an election. --WSJ editorial

The Sen. Al Franken Blue Ball

[...]

Franken is an admitted clown. As such, he will be the only admitted clown in the United States Senate, though he will be seated with such clownish figures as Sen. John Kerry and Sen. Harry Reid.

[...]

What

Quoting bjkeefe: (Stand by for howling about a link to FDL from a certain someone in 5..., 4..., 3...)

Double that watch. TBogg:

Parallel Lines

Yesterday I failed to note that Ross Douthat had written a column in which he pointed out that an anti-abortion conservative of dubious abilities had been handed an undeserved national platform from which to speak to America, and ever since that fateful day, that person has been mocked and derided for every ill-informed opinion, garbled utterance and half-baked idea.

Oh, and he also wrote about Sarah Palin.

Quoting MikeDrew: I find it fascinating just how much Sarah Palin bothers liberal feminists. She's like their kryptonite.

From Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast (via):

Here's the tragedy of Sarah Palin: If she weren't a mean-spirited right-wing Christofascist narcissistic nutball, she COULD have been the kind of feminist around which women could rally. If she were about helping other working mothers and parents of special-needs children and health care for all and a stable job base, she could have been a credible contender for first female president. But alas, she is only an aging beauty queen, a Mean Grrrl who in politics has found a way to extend her reign as Prettiest Girl in High School to use people (or states) and then throw them away when they stop feeding her massive ego -- or the gaping hole in her soul which no amount of attention will fill.

That's from the past day or so. In thinking about it, I remembered a great essay on this topic by Rebecca Traister from last September that deserves to be read in full. And while looking for the above, I came across a post from last

Quoting Ocean: I see your point. That's why I think that her stated positions here reflect the lawyer practicing/displaying skill in defending the other side of the argument mixed what her opinions really are. Sometimes it's difficult to identify what she's doing, but you can see the patterns over time. She is very smart.

Indeed. I run hot/cold on her sometimes which can make it harder to discern her patterns. She does keep the forums busy and she has a flair for the dramatic that will keep her in the mix for quite a while. She did make the point that she considers herself a frustrated artist and some of the stuff she does she considers some form of performance art. There are times when I laugh trying to discern her art of persuasion from her performance art. Good interlocutor when she is on her game though and yeah she is a bright person.

Quoting jr565: ... ridicule ... attack ... attack ... ridicule ... anything goes ... bringing down the discourse and character assassinating people ... Its an almost constant narrative ... hit piece. Journalists control the story ... excessive and beyond the pale ... a grotesque character assassination ... the character assassinating ... negative stories ...

The OUTRAGE continues!!!1! MOAR!!!1!

I can honestly say, I have never dreamt about a political candidate. Gone to bed thinking about a race or election? Yes. Dreamt about one particular candidate? Nope. By the by, I don't care how you use language, though I'd think if you're spending time on internet fora, you'd want to do it well. What I care about is having assumptions be made about where I'm coming from politically based on cracked understandings of my precise use of language.

Quoting MikeDrew: I can honestly say, I have never dreamt about a political candidate. Gone to bed thinking about a race or election? Yes. Dreamt about one particular candidate? Nope.

By the by, I don't care how you use language, though I'd think if you're spending time on internet fora, you'd want to do it well. What I care about is having assumptions be made about where I'm coming from politically based on cracked understandings of my precise use of language.

Oh, relax. Language is a living thing. Meanings shift all the time. Big deal: I misunderstood you, you clarified, I acknowledged. End of story.

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Palin came out as little Miss Barracuda and insulted and demonized roughly half of the country pulling out every one of the tired Democrat cliches that the Republicans could muster. Ontop of the nastiness of things she said, she didn't even come to the fight with even an ounce of integrity or intellectual acumen. The hardcore Right showered her praise and immediately vaulted her to the hopeful future candidate while many of their more thoughtful supporters (Frum, Buckley etc.) decided to take a pass. When the public decided (including many Republicans) that she was not only unqualified, but ultimately just an empty-headed puppet spouting FoxNews soundbites, she retreated behind the skirts of her party to cry "liberal media" and make herself the victim, while continuing to use every opportunity to self-promote. I'll never understand why conservatives have such a tough time understanding the reaction Palin got. How do the people of Amity Isle feel about the shark in the movie "Jaws?" Nobody likes being called bad Americans. If a Democrat goes anywhere near that sort of a statement with regards to Red State America, we see

As I said, it's not about the language, I could give a shit about that. (Though it's too bad it appears you are declining to learn what you might from this interaction). Its about having misfiring, hair-trigger cultural/political signifier antennae and the affect that has on your assumptions about people and the way they therefore react to you. That will continue to seriously affect the way people perceive and react to you, and thus your experience of the world, until you address it. I looked at your blog -- the problem is manifest.

MD, sorry. I think I was assuming based on a post by somebody else earlier in the thread. So change my statement to:

I'll never understand why anyone would have such a tough time understanding the reaction Palin got.

And I stand by the rest of my reasoning/conclusion. I don't think the reaction she gets is out of proportion to the amount of effort she put into trying to get it. There are plenty of liberal bloggers who have not been shy about explaining precisely why they find Palin so irritating. Brendan has written at length about it with numerous links. It's not a big secret. If you don't agree with the reasons or don't feel as intensely about her, well then lucky you (and I do mean that sincerely cause she makes me sick to my stomach.)

Quoting MikeDrew: As I said, it's not about the language, I could give a shit about that. (Though it's too bad it appears you are declining to learn what you might from this interaction). Its about having misfiring, hair-trigger cultural/political signifier antennae and the affect that has on your assumptions about people and the way they therefore react to you.

Who died and left a will declaring you all-knowing? And if you want to talk about learning, maybe you ought get out more and learn what words have come to mean in current discourse, instead of sitting at home with your nose in some old dictionary and raising it out only when you want to look down it at somebody.

That will continue to seriously affect the way people perceive and react to you, and thus your experience of the world, until you address it. I looked at your blog -- the problem is manifest.

I couldn't give a shit what you think about me or my blog. I run it for my own amusement only. You share my sense of humor, fine. You want to argue about something I say on it, also fine. You're more than welcome. You

Quoting MikeDrew: I am not a conservative, but I do find the reaction's strength curious, outsized, fascinating, and a bit difficult to explain. It's not that I don't understand having a negative reaction to her. I have one myself. it's just the intensity of it, especially at this moment when you'd think we'd be focusing on the possibilities of having a charismatic liberal in the White House. Instead many of us focus on Sarah Palin. It's curious -- fascinating even.
.

Are you actually suggesting that liberals, the media, the country, the world , does not shower attention upon Obama? I mean, really?

The point I was trying to make was that Palin is not worth the energy to get that hyper worked up over. She clearly is a non-starter as a national political candidate and has removed herself as Governor of Alaska (in power transmission that is called a "self correcting fault"). If she wants to get herself a TV show or go on the rubber chicken circuit and make some money, who cares. People will watch her or not as they choose. This is America we have actors and comedians becoming politicians and politician becoming actors and comedians. They are all citizens so it is their right. What I don't get is the hyper level of hate generated by both sides of the political spectrum about the soon to be former governor Palin or her counterparts on the left side of the equation. "Argumentum ad hominem" attacks really poison the discussion and don't really seem to prove much of anything regardless of who is making them. It is certainly true that Sarah Palin is guilty of making her share of ad hominem statements. I suppose that

Quoting Richard from Amherst: The point I was trying to make was that Palin is not worth the energy to get that hyper worked up over. She clearly is a non-starter as a national political candidate and has removed herself as Governor of Alaska (in power transmission that is called a "self correcting fault"). If she wants to get herself a TV show or go on the rubber chicken circuit and make some money, who cares. People will watch her or not as they choose. This is America we have actors and comedians becoming politicians and politician becoming actors and comedians. They are all citizens so it is their right.

What I don't get is the hyper level of hate generated by both sides of the political spectrum about the soon to be former governor Palin or her counterparts on the left side of the equation. "Argumentum ad hominem" attacks really poison the discussion and don't really seem to prove much of anything regardless of who is making them. It is certainly true that Sarah Palin is guilty of making her share of ad hominem statements.

I suppose that

Sarah Palin is the telegenic joan of arc of the fly-over goyim (as Gore Vidal calls them). Although Ann can't raise this particular point.

Quoting Richard from Amherst: The point I was trying to make was that Palin is not worth the energy to get that hyper worked up over.

You may be mistaking getting worked up with having a good laugh. I think people should enjoy comedy when it comes their way.

Quoting Richard from Amherst: "Argumentum ad hominem" attacks really poison the discussion and don't really seem to prove much of anything regardless of who is making them.

What's the Latin for "don't listen to people who are always wrong"?

Quoting seancrapola: Sarah Palin is the telegenic joan of arc of the fly-over goyim (as Gore Vidal calls them). Although Ann can't raise this particular point.

The way I phrased this gives the wrong impression. Vidal didn't describe "middle America" as "fly-over goyim;" he was characterizing the disdain that certain right-wing jews have for them. Vidal's venom was intended for pro-Israel neo-cons. Though I'm sure Vidal regards them as a bunch or boobs as well.

Quoting claymisher: You may be mistaking getting worked up with having a good laugh. I think people should enjoy comedy when it comes their way.

Exactly what I was going to say. It takes no energy whatsoever to vent or to indulge in schadenfreude. It is, indeed, refreshing to let it out.

Geez, Michelle, get a grip. All the things you say about Sarah Palin could be equally said for President Obama. Amazing how feminism is completely trumped by political correctness. Read this incredible blog post, "Feminists and the mystery of Sarah Palin" by Reclusive Leftist [ URL: http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/2009...-sarah-palin/] which addresses the issue from the standpoint of a feminist to whom feminism comes FIRST. Women, way to stick together! That's the way to gain your ends. Even though I am a woman, I think that the whole feminism movement gets a big black eye over this Sarah Palin. You look like a gaggle of jealous adolescent insecure girls... wait, you don't just look that way ... I have to take a great issue with you about saying that the Republicans said, oh, wait, you have a woman, Clinton, so look we too have a woman. Duh, ya, we do have a woman. We have MANY women in the conservative world. So? And may I add that this particular conservative woman got where she is on her own hard work while raising a family with the strong support of her husband. It doesn't matter that the Clinton marriage is hollow, no, that's not a big deal. What is a big deal and

Quoting Jayne: ...
At least I am not out pontificating my juvenile point of view.
...

Really?

To niktemadur: A. You are in utter amazement that there are other opinions out there that differ from yours? Welcome to the hurly burly, girly. B. As Althouse said, the claims that there were murderous shouts at a Palin rally were debunked. Purely a creation of the media. C. But, please examine the strength of Michelle's hatred of Palin, that is truly scary and completely unmerited except by some kind of mental illness. Palin is of no threat to Michelle. She is simply a political candidate with a different point of view. With very little chance of being elected, I might add. So where from does this temper tantrum level of deranged hatred come? hmmm? My theory is that the intense hatred of President Bush never dissipated, it just kind of hung around like a funky, ugly yet exciting boyfriend until it found another target in Sarah Palin. Imagine her surprise to be the inheritor of the collectivist feelings earned by George Bush. Kind of makes her seem Presidential in a way..... I don't know you people, but I am hoping that you do not self identify as feminists? I am a - former - feminist (albeit rather a centrist / conservative who

Quoting Jayne: what other movement eats its own? The men I know who are real men don't. The african americans? No. The gays? No. You feminists have become nothing. Live with that.

I just thought I'd highlight this super weird logic.

Quoting DoctorMoney: I just thought I'd highlight this super weird logic.

Yes, indeed, because the first answer that came to mind when I read this ...

Quoting Jayne: what other movement eats its own?

... was: the conservative movement. To be fair, they appear more into purging than eating lately.

Quoting Jayne: what other movement eats its own? The men I know who are real men don't.

I'm a real man and I eat my own all the time. Why, just last weekend I was in hot water with the little missus for ingesting our youngest. I tried telling her that if she wanted me to stop snacking on 'em she'd do a better job camouflaging them but you know how women are about these things.

Heh.

Quoting Jayne: Geez, Michelle, get a grip. All the things you say about Sarah Palin could be equally said for President Obama.

He disdains intelligence and education? Really? Weird.

Quoting Jayne: Amazing how feminism is completely trumped by political correctness.

This doesn't even make sense. Among other things, Michelle seemed to be reacting as a person, not being politically correct, whatever that would mean in this context.

Quoting Jayne: the issue from the standpoint of a feminist to whom feminism comes FIRST. Women, way to stick together! That's the way to gain your ends.

What are you trying to argue here? That feminism should mean always taking the side of a woman because she is a woman, actual political views and such irrelevant? Whether it's feminist or not (although in fact it's not or at least shouldn't be), I reject such a ridiculous idea. Women are individuals, after all, and some I agree with and some I don't. Feminism shouldn't be about supporting women, but supporting the idea that women are equal under the law and society should treat them as equal. Just because one agrees with that idea, it does not follow that one must therefore support Nancy Pelosi or Sarah Palin or any other individual

Quoting stephanie: Would you vote for Nancy Pelosi for president, just because she is a woman?

Perhaps a better illustration would be to ask, "Would you vote for Cynthia McKinney for president, just because she is a woman?" I am always amused at the simplicity of the fringe right's attacks on "feminism." Either liberal feminists are hypocrites (for treating other women as individuals and evaluating them on the merits) or they're a hive mind (when they overwhelming agree that a given individual is not up to snuff).

what other movement eats its own?

I don't know, Republicans?
(I had three dingalinks to Matt Lewis eating his own on three different weeks on This Week in Blog, but I screwed something up and they didn't work. I'm sure if you ask him, though, he'll tell you all about Real Conservatives and who isn't one.)

... prompt condemnation of this picture by jr565, freedomforall, and the rest of the Curators of Outrage. (h/t: OW)

This link should have been included but wasn't - http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104346

Quoting bjkeefe: A final thing to keep in mind: A lot of the traffic that HuffPo gets is due to their constant link-baiting. I don't know the specific breakdowns of the various parts of their site, but I'd be willing to bet tall dollars that a significant fraction of people who go there are there to look at slideshows of attractive people and read celebrity gossip.

This is unrelated to the gist of this thread, but since I happened across something that confirms the above suspicion (via), I thought I'd note it:

But if political coverage gets the most attention in Washington, more than half Huffington Post’s traffic is driven by gossip and entertainment stories. The day the Froomkin news broke, for example, the site’s most popular story wasn’t about health care - it was “American Flag Bikini Moments: What’s YOUR Favorite?” Indeed, the Washington City Paper’s Amanda Hess called attention to the sometimes schizophrenic nature of the site in a recent piece: “Liberal Politics, Sexist Entertainment.” Similarly, columnist Simon Dumenco, last month in AdAge, wrote that the Huffington Post “likes to pretend that it's a respectable voice in the mediasphere, but it shamelessly pumps up its traffic by being

Quoting bjkeefe: This is unrelated to the gist of this thread, but since I happened across something that confirms the above suspicion (via), I thought I'd note it:

The last time I looked at Time and Newsweek, sometime back in the 1980s, they had their share of celebrity trash too. HuffPo is fairly sleazy but it ain't alone.

Quoting claymisher: The last time I looked at Time and Newsweek, sometime back in the 1980s, they had their share of celebrity trash too. HuffPo is fairly sleazy but it ain't alone.

Oh, no, I wasn't passing judgment. I made this point about them because I was saying that though they are heavily trafficked, it's not solely a political site, dedicated to being part of "the media" that is forever attacking poor Sarah, as jr seemed to be claiming. If what it takes for a site or a magazine or a newspaper to make money is to offer a lot of sugar, and they use some of the revenues generated to pay for the reporting of substantive stuff besides, that's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Quoting bjkeefe: Oh, no, I wasn't passing judgment. I made this point about them because I was saying that though they are heavily trafficked, it's not solely a political site, dedicated to being part of "the media" that is forever attacking poor Sarah, as jr seemed to be claiming.

If what it takes for a site or a magazine or a newspaper to make money is to offer a lot of sugar, and they use some of the revenues generated to pay for the reporting of substantive stuff besides, that's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed. I'd rather have people read HP than Drudge. Its top-of-fold story is usually pretty newsworthy even.

Quoting claymisher: Agreed. I'd rather have people read HP than Drudge. Its top-of-fold story is usually pretty newsworthy even.

The one complaint I have with HuffPo is that they publish a lot of woo, like noise from the anti-vaccine hysterics. See orac for detailed complaints, if you don't already know this about the HuffPo.