Seeing as how local weather is one of Pinkerton's favorite arguments against Global Warming, does the heat now mean that he needs to reconsider his position? After all it's hot in DC, today, isn't that evidence enough?!

Quoting kidneystones: Huckabee in 2012!

No, not Huck. Sanford! And McKalip!

A)If there was a study of an unprecedented scope and quality, that definitely proved that having a large gov't, and a greater level of redistribution of wealth, increased the overall level of contentment in the US, does that justify having said things? At what point is the happiness of the many, out weighed by the burden placed on the few? Is having 10 people increase their happiness by X, justify having one persons happiness decrease by 5X? B)If in some society, everyone was born with equal opportunities (excluding genetic factors/random chance), should there be no redistribution of wealth, as one can only blame oneself? Does your answer change if we include genetic factors? If person A is born more intelligent then person B, should person A reap more rewards in life then person B, even though neither had control over their genes? C)Why is there such resistance to modifying someones gentic code, isn't actually more egalitarian, as it levels the playing field more? If you are worried about the technology only being utilized by the rich, why not just subsidize the costs, or make it illegal to pay for the procedure with private capital? D)Why am

James Pinkerton misrepresents what Jairam Ramesh the Indian minister told SOS Clinton. While the minister did express reservations about Cap and Trade and the global warming bill, Environmental controls have been tightening for the last 15 years and continue to get stricter. The point being made was that India was too small to make a significant impact and that measures were already in place.

Of course countries like China and India will care more about CO2 when CO2 is more important to them than economic growth. I don't see how one can assume that there is something inherently different about the Chinese and Indians that suggests they won't be just as worried about CO2 as Americans and Western Europeans are once their economies are like American and Western European economies. I'm fairly sure India and China care about AGW to an extent not predicted by a vulgar tragedy of the commons calculus.

Quoting themightypuck: Of course countries like China and India will care more about CO2 when CO2 is more important to them than economic growth. I don't see how one can assume that there is something inherently different about the Chinese and Indians that suggests they won't be just as worried about CO2 as Americans and Western Europeans are once their economies are like American and Western European economies. I'm fairly sure India and China care about AGW to an extent not predicted by a vulgar tragedy of the commons calculus.

That's a weird comment. It's hard to imagine the Indian and Chinese economies looking anything like western economies in the next 100 years. I can't imagine why India and China will ever be concerned with CO2. I also suspect American interest in CO2 is overstated.

The fact that the government media does not ask the President about Iraq and Afg ignores the great concern the minority has for the safety of American soldiers in those two areas of operation. I think the fact that the military is large majority republican and from red counties and the media with access to Obama is lock step democrat and urban dwelling affects the coverage. The important question that is unasked is how many American soldiers are being killed and wounded in 2009 because their numbers are too few or their tactics too passive. Democrats think the police should increase the risk they face on the job in order to avoid offending the hyper sensitive and drama queen amoung us in public. I think democrat policy makers have implemented a similar decision tradeoff in Iraq and Afg. The problem is that since few democrats work on the front lines in police and military deployments, they dont have the standing to put those who are deployed at greater risk.

In response to Starwatcher's questions: I'd like to tackle some of these...they're interesting questions. A) Here you change your terminology from contentment to happiness. I think contentment may be easier to achieve than happiness, however both are ephemeral. I can't see that it would be possible to create the study you refer to. There would always be questions about what the study is actually measuring. Further, unless there was a constant redistribution imposed, there would always eventually be inequalities, so I wouldn't support this move (although we already do it, with no studies to back it up). I think the best that can be said is Locke's notion of 'the pursuit of happiness'. B) There will never be equal opportunities for everyone. There are all sorts of ways that people are burdened by opportunites which are unequal to others. Given the fluidity of circumstances and human nature, it is impossible to capture a moment when everyone's opportunities will be equal. Blame is a bad word here. I think a better one would be responsibilty. 'take what you have and make the best of it, don't blame others and teach your children to make the best of what

HuffPo and others are making a big deal about Liz Cheney not commenting critically of the birther premise. Instead she said she thinks people are upset that Obama is too receptive and does not refute the anti american statements made by foreign leaders in his presence. Since, in the view of many patriotic americans sides with or is sympathic to the views of anti american foreigners, Obama might himself be a foreigner. I think her response to the birther question was the correct one and very well done. If the government media does not like the birther movement, why dont they bring forward Obama's birth certificate or admit the guys birth in the US is not fully documented? Since the federal system currently in place stipulates that a person has to be born in the USA to serve as president, should not there be a federal official tasked with investigating and verifying that those on the ballot meet all the constitutional criteria? Anyway, Liz Cheney is awesome. Married, 5 children, smart, articulate, conservative, patriotic, ancestral roots in the heartland and willing to get in the public policy mix. Capable of being President of at least Republican America some day.

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Seeing as how local weather is one of Pinkerton's favorite arguments against Global Warming, does the heat now mean that he needs to reconsider his position? After all it's hot in DC, today, isn't that evidence enough?!

I was wondering if the reference hot in DC refers to how busy congress is now.
I seems to me that in previous years, that summer was a lull time in congress.
BTW this year seems cooler than last year. I have not gotten around to putting my air conditioner in the window yet.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: HuffPo and others are making a big deal about Liz Cheney not commenting critically of the birther premise.

Links? Assuming you've accurately represented the facts, good for HuffPo and others. Liz Cheney has a prominent spot in the public eye. If she is a birther or even refuses to say that birthers are crazy, she deserves nothing but scorn. This is an irrational and irresponsible attitude for someone in her position to have. If she actually thinks Obama wasn't born in the US, she's a lunatic. If she doesn't actually believe this, then she's contemptible for playing to a bunch of nuts who cling to this idea almost entirely because, in the end, they can't accept a black man as president.

If the government media does not like the birther movement, why dont they bring forward Obama's birth certificate or admit the guys birth in the US is not fully documented?

In fact, contrary to wingnut opinion, the circumstances of Obama's birth have been exhaustively verified, far more so than for any other politician. Stop relying solely on Rush Limbaugh for your information. Seek out other sources; for example, here, here, and here. The situation as it

Quoting bjkeefe: Links?

Assuming you've accurately represented the facts, good for HuffPo and others. Liz Cheney has a prominent spot in the public eye. If she is a birther or even refuses to say that birthers are crazy, she deserves nothing but scorn. This is an irrational and irresponsible attitude for someone in her position to have. If she actually thinks Obama wasn't born in the US, she's a lunatic. If she doesn't actually believe this, then she's contemptible for playing to a bunch of nuts who cling to this idea almost entirely because, in the end, they can't accept a black man as president.

Here you have David Schuster and some other guy misrepresenting what Liz said. At the bottom of that page is a link to the actual Liz link on Larry King. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_244172.html It is good that this group of Americans has such a decent, articulate spokesperson. These people are very proud of what America historically has been. They dont like it that Obama paints past attempts by America to help the world in a consistently bad light.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: Here you have David Schuster and some other guy misrepresenting what Liz said. At the bottom of that page is a link to the actual Liz link on Larry King.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_244172.html

First, you'd do well to learn the name of Charlie Pierce. Though he's liberal enough that you'd probably want to hold a cross up in front of him, he's also a very good media and government critic, no matter whom he's talking about. You could listen to him and learn to say more intelligent things than "drive-by media" ... "state-controlled media" ... "government media" ... or whatever phrase Rush is babbling these days. Second, I don't see why you think they misrepresented her. That post you link to actually says virtually nothing about what they said she said. It's more a summary of their arguments about whether that disgraceful wingnut spawn of Satan "named" Liz should have been given still more free airtime to rile up the morons who think if they believe hard enough that Obama isn't an American, he'll just vanish into a cloud of pixie dust, and then "decent Americans" can secede, stop paying taxes, stroke their gun barrels all day

Glenn Beck pushing states rights here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_244023.html I like the approach of republicans retaining the flag and the name "America" for their country. Only remove the stars of those states that practice deficit spending and out of control government growth, which have a ruling class that berates the police when they do their jobs or instinctively characterize their actions as "stupid". Drudge has a link today to Rick Perry asserting the right of Texas to reject the federal health plan mandate. The 2010 governors race in Texas will be a very important one.
http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1504240.html The key to defeating the federal health plan mandate is to disallow government from regulating the terms of a health insurance plan that a company can sell to an individual. It is a big mistake ( and wrong ) for republicans in congress to agree to laws which prohibit insurance companies from varying the rates they charge individuals or force them to accept people with pre existing conditions. Properly and comprehensively worded contracts can guarantee long term health insurance better than government mandates.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: Glenn Beck pushing states rights here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_244023.html

I like to imagine the pearl-clutching Steve and his hero Glenn Beck would be indulging themselves in if a Liberal ever DEFACED THE AMERICAN FLAG like that.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: Drudge ...

That's about as far as anyone with sense needs to read in that paragraph.

Pretty interesting that 3/4s of this vlog concerned healthcare and almost none (none so far?) of the comments here do. I hope the bill is as dead as the topic is here and there are some good signs of that. A few things: Mr. Corn makes the statement that he wants healthcare done quickly and really gives no reason why that would be a good thing. We all really know why it is, but the left continues to want to tap dance around it. Corn throws out that it is too complicated for even Jim and him to get there arms around. Jim responds with a facial tic that I am not sure was even in response but in reality that argument is such a sham and so evident of the left's nanny-state mentality that I cringe. Point here is as even the simple things come to the understanding of average Americans, we have problems with. The far left and this Administration knows that the more time we have to get our arms around this, the more its negatives are going to outweigh the positives. Corn is satisfied

Quoting mmacklem: Sorry David, I think your poll is broken

Remind me what the goal of politics is again?

Metaphors gone wild!

New bloggingheads income stream

You are truly the king of dingalinks! This one kinda stunk. Pinkerton was right in the middle between his usual two poles (insightful and batshit insane) so he wasn't entertaining. Mostly just irritating.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: Anyway, Liz Cheney is awesome. Married, 5 children, smart, articulate, conservative, patriotic, ancestral roots in the heartland and willing to get in the public policy mix. Capable of being President of at least Republican America some day.

You know, ancestral roots in the heartland is creepy as fuck. Why not just say das Herrenvolk. No, we pinkos are laughing at Cheney for the impossible bind she's and other Republicans have put themselves in. They can't alienate the birthers by calling them crazies, and they can't embrace them because they are crazies..

Quoting claymisher: You know, ancestral roots in the heartland is creepy as fuck. Why not just say das Herrenvolk.

Like Al Gore?

Quoting claymisher: No, we pinkos are laughing at Cheney for the impossible bind she's and other Republicans have put themselves in. They can't alienate the birthers by calling them crazies, and they can't embrace them because they are crazies..

Kind of like the left and the Code Pinko? I think most on the right have moved on but would prefer that Obama would just produce the proof that would put the birthers at ease. By not producing the long form birth certificate that would show the place of birth and the doctor, they themselves have prolonged the controversy. But we should not be surprised by this oh-so-transparent President as this is not the only area he continues to choose opaqueness... Not surprising that the left would choose to castigate Liz Cheney on things other than substantive points.

Quoting Whatfur: Kind of like the left and the Code Pinko?

Please give examples of mainstream Democratic politicians and/or prominent liberal pundits embracing an action or an extreme position advocated by Code Pink. Note that equating, say, a general statement opposing the invasion of Iraq will not count. By contrast, I can offer you at least ten examples of Republican officials who have either endorsed the Birther nonsense explicitly or encouraged it with a blatant wink, wink.

Not surprising that the left would choose to castigate Liz Cheney on things other than substantive points.

First, the accusation she is encouraging -- that the President of the United States is not eligible -- is a serious one, if completely idiotic. Given her position of prominence, it is also important to hold her to account for irresponsible statements. If you dispute this, think about how annoyed you and your ideological allies get when President Obama opines on something you think he shouldn't. Second, Liz Cheney has also been castigated on other points; e.g., her shameless defense of her father's criminal activities (cf.).

Quoting Whatfur: I think most on the right have moved on but would prefer that Obama would just produce the proof that would put the birthers at ease. By not producing the long form birth certificate that would show the place of birth and the doctor, they themselves have prolonged the controversy.

No. You are wrong about this on at least two levels. First, Obama has in fact produced the so-called "long form." Second, no matter what evidence has been offered, the Birthers just write it off as forged, part of the cover-up, etc. I've already gone on at length about this, with links, in my reply to DS, starting in paragraph 2. (And see also here, for a lighter take, but just as serious and solid a message.) The real reason the Birther thing stays alive has nothing to do with what Obama should or should not be doing in response to it. It is, at core, a convenient way for people who can't accept Obama's "otherness" to be allowed to give voice to their bigotry without having to feel like they're being racists or xenophobes or both. These people are indulged -- even encouraged -- by a

When Corn is right he's right.
We=The left. That=Everything they touch.

Quoting bjkeefe: ...

The real reason the Birther thing stays alive has nothing to do with what Obama should or should not be doing in response to it. It is, at core, a convenient way for people who can't accept Obama's "otherness" to be allowed to give voice to their bigotry without having to feel like they're being racists or xenophobes or both. These people are indulged -- even encouraged -- by a larger circle of people, like you, like Liz Cheney, who are happy to keep the rubes riled up against Obama no matter how stupid the reason. I mean, after all, if you don't keep poor white people filled with fear, suspicion, and hate towards Obama, some of them might start waking up and realizing that he's offering them a program much more in line with what they could use than any of the jingoism and empty slogans coming from the GOP.

From the Stanley Fish article Brendan cited earlier:

He missed the point. No evidence would be sufficient, just as no evidence would have convinced some of my Duke colleagues that Gates was anything but a charlatan and a fraud. It isn’t

Quoting DenvilleSteve: It is good that this group of Americans has such a decent, articulate spokesperson. These people are very proud of what America historically has been. They dont like it that Obama paints past attempts by America to help the world in a consistently bad light.

Who is referred to by "this group of Americans"? Birthers? Pinkerton himself has painted past attempts by America to help the world (i.e., some of our foreign policy adventures) in a bad light. Just trying to help keep it on the diavlog.

Quoting bjkeefe: No. You are wrong about this on at least two levels. First, Obama has in fact produced the so-called "long form." Second, no matter what evidence has been offered, the Birthers just write it off as forged, part of the cover-up, etc. .

Unlike you, who seemingly admits to being obsessed with this topic as much as the birthers themselves, I am not. I am more of the mind that Obama is an American. Now his American experience is pretty strange and the result of it makes me think him odd but I am not concerned with his birth certificate nor does his oddess equate to me with his half-blackness. With that said everything I have seen disputes your "long form" denial above. If you have a link I would be happy to read it. If not, not. Lastly, if you want to separate yourself from Code Pink you should stop sounding like them with your Cheney is a criminal mantra. Are the U.S. Marines serving in Iraq and Afganistan criminals also? No, I don't think castigating Liz Cheney for defending her father against Code Pinkish idiots who want to call him a criminal is substantive.

Quoting claymisher: This one kinda stunk. Pinkerton was right in the middle between his usual two poles (insightful and batshit insane) so he wasn't entertaining. Mostly just irritating.

Yeah, exactly. I know they came up with the excuse that they will have lots of time in the future to debate the merits of the health care bill and the issue generally, but it would have been nice for them to try. In particular, Pinkerton consistently seems to fall back on a discussion of the politics of it (where he has some decent points, but also seems to be indulging in wishful thinking or the all-popular "if I assert it, it will be true") and avoiding saying what he actually thinks is the correct approach. Given his comments in the last (I think) diavlog about thinking Americans want to spend more on health care and hints in this one that from a populist level people are suspicious, I'd be curious for his views on what the correct approach would be. I imagine I wouldn't agree with them, but they would likely be interesting.

Quoting Whatfur: Unlike you, who seemingly admits to being obsessed with this topic as much as the birthers themselves, I am not. I am more of the mind that Obama is an American. Now his American experience is pretty strange and the result of it makes me think him odd but I am not concerned with his birth certificate nor does his oddess equate to me with his half-blackness.

With that said everything I have seen disputes your "long form" denial above. If you have a link I would be happy to read it. If not, not.

Lastly, if you want to separate yourself from Code Pink you should stop sounding like them with your Cheney is a criminal mantra. Are the U.S. Marines serving in Iraq and Afganistan criminals also? No, I don't think castigating Liz Cheney for defending her father against Code Pinkish idiots who want to call him a criminal is substantive.

"Cheney is a criminal" seems pretty well supported by evidence and law. Certainly there's more than enough support for a real investigation. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...1----000-.html http://www.alternet.org/story/17521/ http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=305735 http://blog.washingtonpost.com/chene...lope_on_presi/ http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/s...6464697&page=1 etc... It may be partisan to believe he's guilty prima facie, but there's more than sufficient on the table to make a

Lastly, if you want to separate yourself from Code Pink you should stop sounding like them with your Cheney is a criminal mantra.

Why are you slandering Code Pink? What does Code Pink have to do with the idiocies of the racist Obama-is-an-alien movement? Code Pinkers are American heroes. Thank you for your service to our country, Code Pink.

Quoting Whatfur: Unlike you, who seemingly admits to being obsessed with this topic as much as the birthers themselves, I am not.

Yeah, sure. That's why you brought it up in the first place. And of course you would say that my wish not to let your lies stand is somehow an admission of being obsessed. Sucks being called on your bullshit, doesn't it?

Quoting Whatfur: I am more of the mind that Obama is an American.

Yeah, sure. Of course you back-pedal when you get a strong rebuttal. That's why I find it worth pushing back against people like you and Liz Cheney when you try to spread or sustain FUD.

Quoting Whatfur: Now his American experience is pretty strange and the result of it makes me think him odd ...

But you are unable to resist seeing him as "strange" and "odd" despite all of your protestations. The truth leaks out, the longer you type.

Quoting Whatfur: ... but I am not concerned with his birth certificate nor does his oddess equate to me with his half-blackness.

Save it for someone who was born yesterday.

Quoting Whatfur: With that said everything I have seen disputes your "long form" denial above. If you have a link I would be happy

Quoting AemJeff: "Cheney is a criminal" seems pretty well supported by evidence and law. Certainly there's more than enough support for a real investigation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...1----000-.html

http://www.alternet.org/story/17521/

http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=305735

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/chene...lope_on_presi/

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/s...6464697&page=1

etc... It may be partisan to believe he's guilty prima facie, but there's more than sufficient on the table to make a neutral judgment that there's sufficient basis to believe he might be.

Holding that belief sure as hell isn't equivalent to taking Code Pink seriously as a bellwether of left-wing thought.

Your links are pretty weak and your premise coming out of them is just as...and I think you need to talk to Wonderment about getting with the program.

Quoting Wonderment: Why are you slandering Code Pink? What does Code Pink have to do with the idiocies of the racist Obama-is-an-alien movement?

Code Pinkers are American heroes. Thank you for your service to our country, Code Pink.

There you go!!
But ok, Code Pink was off the cuff...although I am pretty sure I can come up with at least the same number of Dems who at one time or another gave support or the same "Wink Wink" to the Code Pink crowd. So maybe a better example are the truthers of which the birthers name is based on...you know... headed by the head of the Democratic party.

Quoting Whatfur: Your links are pretty weak and your premise coming out of them is just as...and I think you need to talk to Wonderment about getting with the program.

"Weak?" Why? That's just a content free assertion. And remember that my premise is that an investigation isn't a crazy idea, not a blank assertion of guilt. Wonderment is a smart and principled advocate of a point of view I don't entirely share. Just because I don't believe everything he believes doesn't mean I don't respect the integrity of his arguments and the tenacity with which he holds them.

Quoting bjkeefe: Yeah, sure. That's why you brought it up in the first place. And of course you would say that my wish not to let your lies stand is somehow an admission of being obsessed. Sucks being called on your bullshit, doesn't it?

Ummm...I came in late to this conversation. Still working on the credability thing? Plus and again you seem a bit more incensed...what are you worried about?

Quoting bjkeefe: But you are unable to resist seeing him as "strange" and "odd" despite all of your protestations. The truth leaks out, the longer you type.

Why yes it does. You should try it sometime.

Quoting bjkeefe: Save it for someone who was born yesterday.

As opposed to about 8 years ago?

Quoting bjkeefe: I gave you a link in my last reply. Follow it to see multiple links, in particular the one to FactCheck.org, where there are numerous hi-res photos. Why is this so hard for you?

Why is it so hard for you to actually tell the truth? From your link:

Quoting factcheck.org: The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short

Quoting AemJeff: "Weak?" Why? That's just a content free assertion. And remember that that my premise is that an investigation isn't a crazy idea, not a blank assertion of guilt.

Wonderment is a smart and principled advocate of a point of view I don't entirely share. Just because I don't believe everything he believes doesn't mean I don't respect the integrity of his arguments and the tenacity with which he holds them.

Link one is pretty much a definition right? and So? Nothing about Cheney Link two is from a foriegn investigation from almost 6 years ago that came up empty that had nothing to do with war crimes. Link three was a report from our own Congress about Abu Graib about problems there that were already under investigation by the military itself before otherse blew it up and out...of which nothing pointed to Cheney. Link four has an article that unless you choose to believe a terrorist detainee as opposed to everyone else there shows nothing. Link five is informative and can be summed up by a quote from Cheney himself right there "And I think those who allege

Quoting Whatfur: Link one is pretty much a definition right? and So? Nothing about Cheney

Link two is from a foriegn investigation from almost 6 years ago that came up empty that had nothing to do with war crimes.

Link three was a report from our own Congress about Abu Graib about problems there that were already under investigation by the military itself before otherse blew it up and out...of which nothing pointed to Cheney.

Link four has an article that unless you choose to believe a terrorist detainee as opposed to everyone else there shows nothing.

Link five is informative and can be summed up by a quote from Cheney himself right there

"And I think those who allege that we've been involved in torture, or that somehow we violated the Constitution or laws with the terrorist surveillance program, simply don't know what they're talking about."

Thats why. So yeah pretty weak. I suggest y'all attempt concentrate on helping the current President from not being a total flop. Start by convincing him that his healthcare plan is a horrible idea and that there are better ways

Quoting AemJeff: Link one establishes a possible premise. Link two shows a precedent. Also corruption at KBR is hardly a closed issue, and Cheney's links are pretty obvious. Levin's press release indicates an investigation into precisely the issues we're discussing. And so on. The idea that Cheney could find himself on the wrong side of a criminal investigation has a finite probability.

L1: You would have to be more specific.
L2: You mean a precedent of an ill-conceived investigation into Cheney?
L3: A concluded investigation that concluded nothing about Cheney. Sorry...I guess we read these things differently. Finite probabilities include Zero. In any case, like I said concentrating on what Obama is more important to me and America. Whether you appreciated Cheney or not he is now a private citizen and an ex-VP. Right now we have a President that is manipulating the press, trying to manipulate the CBO, firing special prosecuters who find things outside of their liking, a House Majority Leader who is still in power and had proven to be a liar about HER involvement in what you want to bring charges against Cheney, an economy in the tank a President who so far has proved

Quoting Whatfur: [...]

The number of times you mention "Obamacare" and other exaggerations to do with Obama, when the topic at hand is Cheney's crimes, suggests to me that you do not really believe that deeply that Cheney's hands are clean. Ditto your repetition of the talking point that this is in the past and he's "just a private citizen now" -- this is practically an admission on your part that he did in fact do some things you'd rather not have to examine too closely. Just an observation.

Quoting Whatfur: Ummm...I came in late to this conversation. Still working on the credability thing? Plus and again you seem a bit more incensed...what are you worried about?

No, 'fur. You were the first -- of the two of us in this thread -- to bring up the Birthers. And despite your hopes, I am not "incensed." The more I read by you, the less seriously I take it. You're here primarily to make trouble and you have a very limited toolkit for doing so. Basically, you lie about what you've earlier said when it's shown to be idiotic, or you use juvenile insults when you can't even sit still for your own lies.

I thought Larry [Craig] was one of your own. (not talking party here). Why trash him here.

See?

Quoting bjkeefe: The number of times you mention "Obamacare" and other exaggerations to do with Obama, when the topic at hand is Cheney's crimes, suggests to me that you do not really believe that deeply that Cheney's hands are clean. Ditto your repetition of the talking point that this is in the past and he's "just a private citizen now" -- this is practically an admission on your part that he did in fact do some things you'd rather not have to examine too closely.

Just an observation.

Kind of an unoriginal observation considering it resembles much of what I portrayed about you and the birthers. How'd that Factchek link work out for you? Oh and in case it slipped by you this vlog was about Healthcare.

Quoting Whatfur: Kind of an unoriginal observation considering it resembles much of what I portrayed about you and the birthers. How'd that Factchek link work out for you? Oh and in case it slipped by you this vlog was about Healthcare.

Yes, but you're the one who wanted to argue about Cheney and you're the one who brought up the Birthers (to defend another Cheney, as it happens). As far as the FactCheck and PolitiFact links go -- I won't even waste my breath. Deny what's in those articles all you want. You claim not to be a Birther yourself, yet you won't stop dancing up to the line. So, either you're an idiot who believes what the Birthers are selling, or you're an idiot who wants to use their claims to make trouble, same as Liz Cheney. You can deny how idiotic the entire premise is, and you can keep it alive to feed your shriveled little ... heart. And you can call people crazy when they say Bush and Cheney should be investigated. In any case, you fool no one except yourself.

Quoting bjkeefe: No, 'fur. You were the first -- of the two of us in this thread -- to bring up the Birthers.

The more I read by you, the less seriously I take it. You're here primarily to make trouble and you have a very limited toolkit for doing so. Basically, you lie about what you've earlier said when it's shown to be idiotic, or you use juvenile insults when you can't even sit still for your own lies.
....

Ohhhh I see the first..."of the two of us". Ahhh it makes sense now..in your world of covering your tracks with BS. Well maybe it could have been kept that way except for the fact that you cannot help yourself from jumping in any thread you happen to see my name...which is pretty interesting considering how un-'seriously' you take me. Don't you tire of getting bested...it has to be embarrassing...they won't admit it of course but I can imagine that even your widdle buddies shiver a bit every time you attempt to take me on and wince every time your silliness is exposed. You will have to point out my lies. Thats one

Quoting AemJeff: "Cheney is a criminal" seems pretty well supported by evidence and law. Certainly there's more than enough support for a real investigation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...1----000-.html

http://www.alternet.org/story/17521/

http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=305735

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/chene...lope_on_presi/

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/s...6464697&page=1

Another possible crime comes to light, via email from a friend. Hard to believe I'm saying this, but a small salute to George W. Bush on this one -- looks like he for once had the stones to deny Cheney's urge to violate every paragraph of the U.S. Constitution.

Quoting bjkeefe: Another possible crime comes to light, via email from a friend. Hard to believe I'm saying this, but a small salute to George W. Bush on this one -- looks like he for once had the stones to deny Cheney's urge to violate every paragraph of the U.S. Constitution.

Yeah! Huge! A maybe, sorta, possible crime that never came to fruition.
I agree, a perfect addition for this list. Does Pelosi know about this one? I mean it does not look like the CIA was involved but the FBI was and I am sure they lie to her too and maybe they didn't bother to tell her about something that didn't happen...or maybe they did tell her that nothing was going to happen...and nothing happened!...oh the humanity.

Quoting bjkeefe: Another possible crime comes to light, via email from a friend. Hard to believe I'm saying this, but a small salute to George W. Bush on this one -- looks like he for once had the stones to deny Cheney's urge to violate every paragraph of the U.S. Constitution.

Coverage from a less spineless source.

Quoting Whatfur: Yeah! Huge! A maybe, sorta, possible crime that never came to fruition.
I agree, a perfect addition for this list. Does Pelosi know about this one? I mean it does not look like the CIA was involved but the FBI was and I am sure they lie to her too and maybe they didn't bother to tell her about something that didn't happen...or maybe they did tell her that nothing was going to happen...and nothing happened!...oh the humanity.

I smell panic. It smells like wet 'fur.

Quoting Whatfur: You will have to point out my lies.

No I won't. Anyone who hasn't already added you to his or her ignore list will already know what I'm talking about, and you won't admit them. The sputtering hysteria of the rest of your response indicates that I struck a serious nerve. Thanks for letting me know.

Quoting bjkeefe: No I won't.

I'm shocked...shocked I tell you.

Quoting Whatfur: [...]

I see by your subject line that I've really gotten under your skin. Back to your homophobic name-calling, huh? Last refuge of The 'Fur. Thanks, again, for letting me know.

Quoting Whatfur: But ok, Code Pink was off the cuff...although I am pretty sure I can come up with at least the same number of Dems who at one time or another gave support or the same "Wink Wink" to the Code Pink crowd.

Funny. When I asked you earlier to do just this ...

Quoting bjkeefe: Please give examples of mainstream Democratic politicians and/or prominent liberal pundits embracing an action or an extreme position advocated by Code Pink. Note that equating, say, a general statement opposing the invasion of Iraq will not count.

... you were unable to name even one.

Quoting Whatfur: So maybe a better example are the truthers of which the birthers name is based on...you know... headed by the head of the Democratic party.

So, you're saying Obama was a 9/11 Truther? Really? Don't suppose you'll be able to back that lie up any better than any of your other lies, so I suppose I'll just looking forward to you furiously hammering your P, E, R, and Z keys. [Added] Or the Q, U, E, and F keys, as the case may be.

Quoting Whatfur: ... jumping in any thread you happen to see my name...

If you're afraid to get ridiculed, don't post your thoughts in a public forum.

Quoting Whatfur: ...sure wouldn't want to have a discussion on issues here.

That much is obvious. First honest thing you've said that I can remember, too, so it deserves special notice.

Quoting Whatfur: ... that last word was "credability". Ironic eh?

What, that you can't spell it? Yeah, I guess that is pretty ironic, now that you mention it.

Back to normal programming... A nice little, timely article talking about much of what I have referred to about Obamacare. Freedoms you lose. This really is not a left/right thing even though the Democrats in government who, as Obama admitted the other night, have GREAT healthcare, are the ones pushing it. This is just a bad bill and a bad idea that statist, leftists, and communists have been trying to ram down our throats for a long time. (did you listen to my Reagan audio...it was not historic but prophetic.) Lets as a country work towards addressing the problems instead of trashing everything and starting anew. Heard a funny analogy the other day where you need new kitchen cabinets, the toilet in the basement runs continuously, and the living room rug is worn...so you dynamite the house. Sorry kids but 2% of the population cannot sustain paying the healthcare for 98% of us. Lets look at tort reform and other cost saving methods, lets get state government out of the determination of what insurance has to provide, lets find a way to effectively take care of the uninsured. The CBO did not make up their numbers. Don't

Quoting bjkeefe: That much is obvious. First honest thing you've said that I can remember, too, so it deserves special notice.

Haha...a new trick from the Queef...the filibuster. Nice!!! Might just work Queef, they might not notice me calling you out and you running away from your accusation. Run away...run away.

Quoting Whatfur: Haha... the Queef...

... Queef ...

I rest my case.

Quoting Whatfur: ... that last word was "credability". Ironic eh?

Quoting bjkeefe: What, that you can't spell it? Yeah, I guess that is pretty ironic, now that you mention it.

Ha, my spelling now. Well that would sting if the old saying was... "A man is only as good as his spelling"

Quoting Whatfur: Well that would sting if ...

There is no "if" about it. Zinging you on your inability to spell credibility stung you or you wouldn't have bothered to respond. That you aren't honest enough to admit that to yourself is just another one of your problems, not mine. Continued thanks for letting me know that I keep getting to you, though.

Quoting Starwatcher162536: A)If there was a study ...

Almost impossible to answer as the imagined premise does not seem to describe anything in the real world. American style capitalisim may not create economic equality for all but has proven to increase the welfare of all. Happiness on the other hand is hard to compare. When I have been in China, I have seen alot of happiness while also seeing people eating off the street as luxury cars drive by them. (Not that you could not see that in the U.S. but the obvious (and real) poverty in China was more evident to me.

Quoting Starwatcher162536: B)If in some society, ...

If you are asking if I think a government should come in and steal money from some, pocket close to half themselves, and then pass it out to others who may or may not really deserve it. No. Do I think there is an innate need to take care those around you who are less fortunate. Yes. And If we let those who have the extra dollar pass it out themselves to witnessed need it not only remains a dollar but goes to the actual

Another Obamacare perspective.

Quoting Whatfur: Another Obamacare perspective.

Mmmm. CNS News. I guess this is a source 'fur considers "credable."

Quoting bjkeefe: Mmmm. CNS News.

I guess this is a source 'fur considers "credable."

Actually Perez, just like when I read one of the many things posted here from Salon, Slate, firedoglake, or or or I may have my guard up while reading them, but I don't immediately discount them because where they are published. You know like you discount Palin because of the way she wears her hair or something. Au Contraire, I have found in reading them that they actually have something to offer even if its just portrayals of opinions I may not agree with. Its called educating oneself. On the other hand your response here is further evidence of your stunted intelligence and your echo-chamber mentality. I wonder if Bob Wright watches your contributions here and considers them good examples of what he looks for in blog moderators or if like me he snickers and shakes his head.

Quoting Whatfur: Actually Perez, ...

Thanks for letting me know I scored another point on you.

... just like when I read one of the many things posted here from Salon, Slate, firedoglake, or or or I may have my guard up while reading them, but I don't immediately discount them because where they are published.

Good for you for this small amount of intellectual honesty. That doesn't change the fact that any organization run by Brent Bozell isn't worth the saliva it takes to spit on it.

You know like you discount Palin because of the way she wears her hair or something.

Care to document this claim?

Au Contraire, I have found in reading them that they actually have something to offer even if its just portrayals of opinions I may not agree with. Its called educating oneself.

Again, good for you. The examples you give are fairly worthwhile sources, especially when considering certain of the individuals associated with them. Maybe there is some hope for you yet. Doesn't mean you get to draw an equivalence to a outfit run by a pathologically uptight Christianist wingnut, though.

I wonder if Bob Wright watches ...

Oh, fight your own battles, you little wimp. Or clean

Quoting bjkeefe: ...
Oh, fight your own battles, you little wimp. Or clean up your own act if you can't take it when it comes back at you.

Perez,
How many times must I mop the floor with you...before you realize that your feeble attempts at projection are...well... snickered at with a shake of the head. Actually,yesterday found it rather funny when back searching for a previous Queef inaccuracy I ran into a thread where you and your buddies were accusing someone else of being my sock puppet. Why? you ask...well of course because he was pointing out your intellectual inadequacies and your prolific pompasity. Yep...I snickered and shook my head. Peace and Love p.s. I do also find it funny that you now answer to Perez. ;o)

Quoting Whatfur: Perez, ...Queef ... Perez.

Thanks for letting me know that I scored on you again. Did Bob Wright laugh at your whining email? Was it before or after he saw

Quoting Whatfur: ... pompasity ...

?

Don't cry Brendan.

I think you may have missed the point...

Quoting Whatfur: Don't cry Brendan.

Your weakest response yet. Nice to see that you learned how to spell a new word, though.

Wow! Susan Estrich! Not quite CNSNews! I have always considered Ms. Estrich pretty partisan so I was pleasantly surprised when I saw she penned this piece. No she is not jumping onto one side or the other quite yet but is wise enough to actually want to know something about it while actually wanting the President to know something about it too...while suggesting we slow down the love train...Unlike David "I want it done quickly" Corn who is comfortable bent over with his pants pulled down to his knees being administered Obamacare by Barack (not a Dr. but he plays one on TV) Obama without even questioning why he is in that position for a toothache. In any case...I find it quite telling and admirable actually that nobody here is arguing for it either...albeit I was looking forward to someone actually attempting to. I guess some are just too busy trying to save face. In any case there is a petition you should sign that is one small way of keeping this travesty from becoming reality.

Monday Morning Bonus. My friend Ann is right where I am.

Quoting Whatfur: Monday Morning Bonus.

My friend Ann is right where I am.

Two days ago:

Quoting Whatfur: I think most on the right have moved on but would prefer that Obama would just produce the proof that would put the birthers at ease. By not producing the long form birth certificate that would show the place of birth and the doctor, they themselves have prolonged the controversy.

Good to know that as long as Ann Coulter says something, your mind is eased. [Added] More on Lou Dobbs the Birther. Also via War Room, an interesting bit regarding the McCain campaign's take on the Cult of the COLB.

Quoting bjkeefe: Two days ago:

Good to know that as long as Ann Coulter says something, your mind is eased.

As Perez continues to misrepresent of the truth, I only need to point above to my entire foray into the birther discussion above, but I guess even his provided quote gives a hint to it. I do note where my link equates to the "we're over it and get over it" mentality that most on the right have...Perez continues to make his obsession with the conspiracy more evident. This is great though, Perez starts the week thrashing about like the little girl he wishes he was. Any comments on the Healthcare legislation, Mr. Moderator? Anything intelligent to add at all? Guess not. Now, I have noticed where your little buddies have not been jumping in like they usually do...could it be?
could it possibly be they are also starting to tire of holding up your fat pants as you flail incessantly? /snickers...shakes head.

Quoting Whatfur: ... Perez ... Perez ... Perez ... little girl ... Mr. Moderator ... your fat pants ...

Thanks for letting me know I scored on you once again.

Yeah...what do a bunch of accountants know!!!

Quoting Whatfur: Kind of like the left and the Code Pinko?

Ah, yes. The horror. The horror. Thank goodness conservatives never indulge in such disruptive behavior. (via)

Quoting bjkeefe: Ah, yes. The horror. The horror. Thank goodness conservatives never indulge in such disruptive behavior.

(via)

Oh, and is it really "grass roots?" No, it's more Republican Astroturfing: "Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign."

Quoting bjkeefe: Oh, and is it really "grass roots?" No, it's more Republican Astroturfing: "Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign."

Hahahahaha! How's it feel? Moveon.org has been supplying marching orders for almost a decade. But go ahead, write this off as a few inciting the masses and see where that gets you. Sorry, but there is genuine contempt for this bill, not to mention the methodology your frauds in Washington have been trying to utilize to get it through. "...can't even run a Cash for Clunkers program..." pretty much sums it up. Thanks for the humor this morning with whole bunch of your own hypocrisy thrown in. Hahahahahaha!

Quoting bjkeefe: Oh, and is it really "grass roots?" No, it's more Republican Astroturfing: "Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign."

Hahahahaha! How's it feel? Moveon.org has been supplying marching orders for almost a decade(even now as they script healthcare bill calls). But go ahead, write this off as a few inciting the masses and see where that gets you. Sorry, but there is genuine contempt for this bill, not to mention the methodology your frauds in Washington have been trying to utilize to get it through. "...can't even run a Cash for Clunkers program..." pretty much sums it up. Thanks for the humor this morning with whole bunch of your own hypocrisy thrown in. Hahahahahaha! Oh and you wanted more Liz Cheney???

Quoting Whatfur: "...can't even run a Cash for Clunkers program..." pretty much sums it up.

I do love that the wingnut talking point on this one is that a program that succeeds even better than hoped is said to be a failure. More up-is-downism from the Party of the Birfers.

Quoting Whatfur: Oh and you wanted more Liz Cheney???[

No. We like your new leader, Orly Taitz.

Quoting bjkeefe: No. We like your new leader, Orly Taitz.

Hahahahaha. Birtherism...where liberals hang their hats.

Quoting Whatfur: Hahahahaha.

Birtherism...where liberals hang their hats.

You got that absolutely right. We will hammer on this until the cows come home. This is the issue that will expose to the casual voter just how in thrall the GOP* is to the deadender 20%. Taitz/Palin 2012!!1! ========== * [Added] Matter of fact, let's just start calling them the GOBP from now on.

Quoting bjkeefe: You got that absolutely right. We will hammer on this until the cows come home. This is the issue that will expose to the casual voter just how in thrall the GOP* is to the deadender 20%.

That's great!! The diversion blowing up in the faces of the diverters. In the mean time, the rest of us will tackle real issues! Let us know how things work out.

Quoting Whatfur: That's great!! The diversion blowing up in the faces of the diverters. In the mean time, the rest of us will tackle real issues! [...]

I highly doubt it, but I would be thrilled to see that happen. Good luck.

Quoting Whatfur: Oh and you wanted more Liz Cheney???

I declined your kind offer, but maybe I spoke too soon. This is from the official site of Tragic the Gathering (via):

The RedState Gathering heard from many existing and rising Conservative stars, but the speaker who truly rocked the house, biggest crowd-pleaser, was Liz Cheney. Her “America Needs Commander in Chief, Not a Global Community Organizer” speech was made of awesome.

Unfortunately, the available video clip does not convey the electricity that Cheney brought to the Gathering. [...]

[...] What you will not experience is the inspiring feeling of chatting with a confident Conservative leader.

ROFL! Sucks when the drugs wear off. (NB: "Tragic the Gathering" is due to the great one.)

Quoting bjkeefe:
ROFL!

Is right!! BJ "StepsInOwnShit" O'Keefe links to 2 obscure liberal blogs who, like him, are also obsessed with Birthers ...on the same day he admonishes others for linking to obscure conservative blogs portraying liberal blogs as being obsessed with Birthers. I guess the drugs are still in full swing!

Quoting Whatfur: ... BJ "StepsInOwnShit" O'Keefe ...

Thanks for letting us know I scored on you. We'll call this one a double.

Quoting bjkeefe: Thanks for letting us know I scored on you. We'll call this one a double.

Both feet then? Sure! A double it is!

Quoting bjkeefe: Ah, yes. The horror. The horror. Thank goodness conservatives never indulge in such disruptive behavior.

(via)

Quoting bjkeefe: Oh, and is it really "grass roots?" No, it's more Republican Astroturfing: "Inside The Tea Partiers Anti-Health Care Organizing Campaign."

Thers makes an interesting observation in his recent post, "Imaginary Liberal "Disruption": Fascism! Actual Conservative Disruption: Democracy!" It begins as follows:

Cast thy mind into the dark backward and abysm of Time. Because a dark, backward abysm is just [where] we're headed.

You may recall that back this spring Greater Wingnuttia was aghast, and shocked, just shocked, at the entirely imaginary news that George Soros-funded ACORN/Code Pink goon squads were going to show up and disrupt their ridiculous "Tea Parties." Michelle Malkin breathlessly broke the news (she does everything breathlessly, and the resultant oxygen deficiency explains an awful lot) thusly:

And on the ground, the tax-subsidized and Soros-subsidized troops are going to try and wreak havoc every way they can. Many readers and fellow bloggers have seen signs that ACORN may send in ringers and saboteurs to usurp the anti-tax, anti-reckless spending, anti-bailout message.

Egad. Alarums and excursions! Wizbang revealed that an even more sinister figure stood behind Soros in this wicked conspiracy to shut down the Tea Parties: Barack Obama, whose

Quoting bjkeefe: Thers makes an interesting observation...

Pirate talk? Poor, poor, lefties playing the victim...there's a shocker... I suggest you actually watch as many townhalls as you can. Hardly orchestrated. One cannot orchestrate this level of contempt... Bottom line is most see the insanity of blowing up a system and putting it in the governments hands to take care of a plight of about 3% of the population...which is amazingly still less tha the 5% they say will continue to be uncovered once "Thers" is put into play. Just to be fair here are some additional talking points to help the idiots play against the Rethublicans...

Quoting Whatfur: Bottom line is most see the insanity of blowing up a system and putting it in the governments hands to take care of a plight of about 3% of the population...

The Big Lie continues. Nothing to do except shake my head at this.

Quoting bjkeefe: The Big Lie continues.

Nothing to do except shake my head at this.

How about disputing my numbers with numbers of your own? Huh? Huh? Huh? When you finally shut up about the population vs uninsured numbers, obviously realizing your failing math in the 4th grade was finally catching up to you, I figured that you would recognize your obvious limitations and move on to pursuits more akin to your intelligence...like chasing down birffers. Here is another article about the obvious lefty hypocrisy and cluelessness. Not that anyone would need to go any further than looking at 75% (that would be, you have 4 apples and you take 1 away) of the documented liar's (Perez) posts.

Quoting Whatfur: How about disputing my numbers with numbers of your own? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Take a breath there, 'fur. The reason I won't is twofold: because you're hysterical and because you have no interest in an honest discussion.

Quoting Whatfur: ... Perez ...

But thanks for letting us know I scored on you.

Quoting bjkeefe: The reason I won't...:
....
.

...is obvious. Because you can't. Because any attempt to do so will illuminate your ineptitude and weakness of your position. Nice to see you have finally gotten the counting to 2 thing down though.
Waytago!!!