Thanks for the fantastic reporting effort, Sheri and A.C. Sounds like you did really important work (will read articles when I am more up for that amount of grimness). You added to that, it seems to me, by telling some of your behind the scenes stories. It's always worth shining some lights on government officials who don't mind admitting they don't follow the law. One suggestion: If you have further opportunities to talk about the work you both have done, your story might come across better if one or both of you got interviewed by a neutral interlocutor. I'd think you'd be less worried about sounding self-congratulatory in that case. Which, again is not to say that you don't deserve congratulations, the jeffpeterson comment notwithstanding. (I applaud whoever decided to block that one from appearing on the video page.)

Sounds interesting, but they seem to presume everyone has read their work, and what is being alleged. They both think the other wrote really important, shocking pieces. It's not clear to me who is being accused of what kind of negligence or malfeasance. Having to infer it indirectly is difficult. It would be useful to assume listeners have not read your work, or know your main thesis.

So, let me get this straight... A rich and popular heart and neck surgeon
decides to stay with her near death patients in a dark, stench-filled,
flooded hospital. Despite the fact that New Orleans was under a mandatory
evacuation, she makes the decision to risk her life rather than get in her
Lexus and drive on out to the high ground of Baton Rouge.
She does her best with mid-evil conditions for three days and at the very
moment of the air evacuation she makes the decision to kill all of her
patients rather than have them sent off to their families.
She should be put under the jail!!

Other links: http://www.democracynow.org/2009/8/3..._investigation Related links, Professor Reinhardt is worth listening to: http://www.kcrw.com/news/programs/tp...ane_katrina_an That situation was truly insignificant in the greater national outlook, what are we going to do in a crisis that involves more than a large city hospital? I have listened to Jared Diamond talk about Civilization Collapse, did the inhabitants of Easter Island realize what they were doing when they cut the last trees? Do we realize that our resources are limited even as we sit in front of our computer screens debating the merits and costs of Universal Health Care? Do we understand that we are not caring for the well being of our patients and our community when we do not approach ALL of our medical decisions using the SAME cost/benefit analysis/EBM across the board? What are we going to do if there is a swine flu pandemic this coming Winter? The time to sit down and think is NOW, when we are not under pressure... I have more questions after reading only part of the lengthy article: Was the ENT surgeon a shareholder in the TENET venture? Did they make a decision based on profit or cost cutting? Were

Quoting eric:
Having to infer it indirectly is difficult. It would be useful to assume listeners have not read your work, or know your main thesis.

I am really interested in this, so I guess your concern didn't occur to me. I must say I am a little amazed that this forum has not generated more commentary here. Have people given up on NOLA? Today there was a funny (and sad) commentary in the Root about the mayoral candidates. The reader comes away with the distinct impression that New Orleans is now a fully fascistic city.

Quoting bellyputts: So, let me get this straight... A rich and popular heart and neck surgeon
decides to stay with her near death patients in a dark, stench-filled,
flooded hospital. Despite the fact that New Orleans was under a mandatory
evacuation, she makes the decision to risk her life rather than get in her
Lexus and drive on out to the high ground of Baton Rouge.
She does her best with mid-evil conditions for three days and at the very
moment of the air evacuation she makes the decision to kill all of her
patients rather than have them sent off to their families.
She should be put under the jail!!

Well, doctors for better and worse have taken the Hippocratic oath. It's a bummer, I realize, but they are somewhat ethically bound to stay with their patients. This BH was chilling for me.

All of the BH episodes with ProPublica reporters have been terrific. Paul Kiel and Simon Johnson, Dafna Linzer.....

Quoting willmybasilgrow: I must say I am a little amazed that this forum has not generated more commentary here. Have people given up on NOLA?

I am going to hazard the guess that at least part of the reason is that it was such a disaster that people are uncomfortable thinking about the specifics. Put another way, it may be a form of denial -- we do not like to think about how fragile is the veneer of our civilization.

I posted the same thoughts in a large Physician only forum, and only received one private response. Just like most people avoid to think about death, we avoid other cataclysmic considerations and planning. Maybe this also explains why dictatorships and strict religious organizations are successful, humans may prefer to follow orders blindly and seek refuge under the excuse "I am following orders..."

I suppose. But I can't help recalling the overflowing offers of support in the days just after Katrina, the flood of volunteers, hearing stories of young northerners moving to New Orleans, and especially the way we were all glued to our TVs during the hurricane and just after. And now? This? Zilch. It's strange.

The devil is in the details of the cases...

Not in New Orelans, but in Baton Rouge. I actually don't think there is or was anything wrong with people trying to protect themselves, their property, and their community from strange black men in New Orleans. People need to understand that New Orleans is perhaps the most violent city in the country per capita... pre-Katrina and afterward. Almost all the victims and perps of murders are black men. There are carjackings all the time, there are armed robberies all the time. I know people who have been held up at gun point, and who have had their apartment broken into and been held up at gun point. In one instance one guy (black) robbed a guy (asian) in his own carport and then two days latter robbed and shot a guy (hispanic) a few houses down. Just so he could steal a car and strip it down for cash. Frankly if you see young black men loitering in New Orleans while stopped at an intersection and you don't lock your car... you're stupid. One of the more crazy post Katrina stories is that of the black District Attorney Eddie Jordan who

Reality check: Who was going to break into the hospital, pillage medications and abuse sick people?
Nobody...

Obviously I wasn't addressing the mercy killings. However, I'll add that public sentiment in Louisiana was against Charles Foti, the State Attorney General at the time, prosecuting the doctor for murder. Foti was so unpopular he didn't run for office again, and part of it had to do with how he handled himself with regards to the mercy killing case. He was overzealous and wanted to railroad her into prison before having any idea what the facts were.

Quoting SkepticDoc: Reality check:

Who was going to break into the hospital, pillage medications and abuse sick people?

Nobody...

... and I think you're wrong about breaking in to hospitals and pillaging medications. That may have actually happened and it could have happened. Breaking in to abuse sick people, I'm with you on, but your other two points are plausible to me.

E.E. was a "mercy killing"? Give me a break... That was murder, not even euthanasia...

Quoting willmybasilgrow: I am really interested in this, so I guess your concern didn't occur to me. I must say I am a little amazed that this forum has not generated more commentary here. Have people given up on NOLA?

Today there was a funny (and sad) commentary in the Root about the mayoral candidates. The reader comes away with the distinct impression that New Orleans is now a fully fascistic city.

I was on the front lines of disaster relief in New Orleans. I could tell a lot of stories like the ones discussed in this forum...but I don't. Why? I have never seen combat in a war but I suspect it is something like that. Once in a while I run across someone who has shared my experiences and we really get into it. But trying to explain it to those who only saw it on tv is too emotional and frustrating. The two things I can tell people I learned are this: People were allowed to die because those with the means to save them felt they deserved it for not be self suffient enough. This includes the elderly, children, and the disabled. A disaster like this will reveal all

Quoting ohcomeon: I was on the front lines of disaster relief in New Orleans. I could tell a lot of stories like the ones discussed in this forum...but I don't.

I would be interested in reading it.

Quoting ohcomeon: But THOUSANDS who were there took up arms to make sure no help could be provided.

who is this in reference to?

Quoting ohcomeon: I was on the front lines of disaster relief in New Orleans. I could tell a lot of stories like the ones discussed in this forum...but I don't. Why? I have never seen combat in a war but I suspect it is something like that. Once in a while I run across someone who has shared my experiences and we really get into it. But trying to explain it to those who only saw it on tv is too emotional and frustrating.

The two things I can tell people I learned are this:

People were allowed to die because those with the means to save them felt they deserved it for not be self suffient enough. This includes the elderly, children, and the disabled.

A disaster like this will reveal all the fear and hatred humans have for each other. Yes - millions of Americans who were not there stepped forward to help. But THOUSANDS who were there took up arms to make sure no help could be provided.

Yes, I suppose. I also volunteered, but a month afterwards.

This was a very interesting discussion. But it didn't address the very important issues in Dr. Fink's article respecting medical ethics and moral philosophy. I really hope the Bloggingheads editors invite Dr. Fink to do another diavlog with either a medical ethicist or a moral philosopher. Thanks very much for considering this.

How about a diavlog between Dr. Fink and Ben Bradley http://philosophy.syr.edu/FacBradleyVitae.htm ? or between Dr. Fink and Dr. Peter Lipson, http://bloggingheads.tv/search/?part...ipson,%20Peter , or Dr. Janet Stemwedel, http://www.stemwedel.org/ ? This would be a focus on the substance of Dr. Fink's article, viz. the ethical issues. Thanks very much for considering this!

I must be having a "Superego" crisis, nobody else is outraged at the details of the murders in the name of "euthanasia"? If you don't protect the weak in their time of need, don't expect anybody to help you when YOU are the one in need... From Wikipedia: "First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me." is just one of many variations of a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
http://isurvived.org/home.html#Prologue

The people in the State of Louisiana thought otherwise. The doctor was in a "what the fuck do I do" situation. Nobody knew what was going on. This was not some doctor killing people just for the sake of killing them cause they're nearing the end. There was no power. No water. No communication. No nothing. It was a force majeure situation for all involved.

Quoting DenvilleSteve: who is this in reference to?

I think possibly the fact that after the storm, people tried to leave the city, but some sort of law enforcement had blocked the bridges. This was to keep the problems (such as homeless, sick poor people) in Orleans Parish, and out of adjoining areas. People who live around New Olreans often think of it as a hell-hole to be defended against. Which is too bad.

Quoting Lyle: I actually don't think there is or was anything wrong with people trying to protect themselves, their property, and their community from strange black men in New Orleans. People need to understand that New Orleans is perhaps the most violent city in the country per capita... pre-Katrina and afterward. Almost all the victims and perps of murders are black men. There are carjackings all the time, there are armed robberies all the time. I know people who have been held up at gun point, and who have had their apartment broken into and been held up at gun point. In one instance one guy (black) robbed a guy (asian) in his own carport and then two days latter robbed and shot a guy (hispanic) a few houses down. Just so he could steal a car and strip it down for cash. Frankly if you see young black men loitering in New Orleans while stopped at an intersection and you don't lock your car... you're stupid.

I used to live in New Orleans, and I agree entirely about the dangerous nature of the city. Since the city is mostly black and mostly poor, I think it's

Quoting osmium: Framing it as "young black men" makes it sound racial and potentially easy to take the wrong way. I agree re: your last point about how most of the people there are just trying to lead a normal life.

As obtuse or vague as Lyle tends when opposing reason, concerning race he is steadfast and true: He rarely misses a truth-telling opportunity if the point includes numbers of blacks involved in black on black crime or inner-city degradation. He's just upstanding in that regard.

I disagree, because in New Orleans you're looking out for young black men. There's something dishonest about just saying young men. It's like the media describing Columbine events as "teen violence", when it's really male teen violence. If it is racial, it is racial, but that's simply the reality in New Orleans. The truth may hurt and offend, but it's the truth.

You disagree that poor, urban, black America doesn't have a violence problem? If so, why are you uncomfortable talking about it forthrightly?

At the risk of continuing my streak of posting nothing but common sense obervations.... Its really only a black (or other minority) problem if poor white areas have less crime/violence then poor black areas. Of course, the areas will need to have matching police involvement, social welfare programs, population densitys ,etc. for the comparison to mean anything.

By violence, I meant murder. Poor, urban black men are disproportionately the victims of murder and are disproportionately charged with and/or convicted of murder. So if you measure violence strictly by the number of murders committed you can measure the levels of violence in any given community.

Did you even read my post? No, you cannot use that method to determine if violence is a black problem if you do not control for income.

Yes, I read your post... which is why I specified that you can measure for violence in any given community by basing it on the number of murders. And aren't there plenty of demographic studies, often based on the U.S. census, that tells us who lives where and has what income? I think so.