nikkibong writes... Mark offers a lot, agreed. You spent time in China. How would you feel if American school children were taught to sing the praises of George Bush or Sarah Palin? Would you object? How about Mark? Would Mark argue that politically indoctrinating children in public schools is a crime?

I didn't quite finish the segment, but unless I missed anything that would solve this, a few points: 1) Kleiman contradicts himself. After establishing the fact that higher cigarette taxes resulted in greater smuggling, he proceeds to offer higher taxes as a solution to curb alcohol abuse. This ignores the fact that at a certain point, taxation levels will lead to smuggling, which will be used by those who abuse alcohol to begin with. 2) Kleiman appears to lack an understanding of the role genetics and cognitive processing play in crime. Hope, Mr. Kleiman, will not solve anything. You can not stop a person who is hardwired with a predisposition toward violence and an insufficient processing of long term consequences of actions from ending up committing a crime. Generally, the more comfortable their life is, the less likely they are to commit a crime, but they are a ticking time bomb no matter what. 3) I think that Singapore has a higher percentage of people in prison than the United States. They have a much higher execution rate. Even if it does not, it directly contradicts Kleiman's hypothesis that a 'tough on crime' approach doesn't yield results. Singapore is perhaps

Quoting cognitive madisonian: ...
Kleiman is doubtlessly well read but appears to lack a truly rounded understanding of crime.

That qualifies as quite a singular view.

A programming note: I'm delighted to know that there are Bloggingheads enthusiasts who are very familiar with Mark's fascinating and vitally important work. But of course authors often try to reach broader audiences, and that involves introducing new readers and new viewers to concepts that some of us find very familiar. I had assumed that this would be obvious, and it is the reason I wanted to give Mark the opportunity to introduce viewers to the central concepts of _When Brute Force Fails_. Having written for a number of blogs over the years, I'm always fascinated by the tone of reader responses, and how certain sensibilities come
to predominate. At _The American Scene_, there's been a lot of debate an discussion over the changing tenor of our comments. Suffice it to say, a lot of us have found the increasingly sharp tone discouraging. Not me, though: I've long maintained that the secret to life is low expectations. I'm thus delighted when I read commenters who come across as thoughtful, well-informed, and at least slightly empathetic. Actually, a lot of our bloggers are people I first came across via their comments. But now I'm
rambling! Go read Mark's book if you haven't.

Right on... write on yourself... new right via Salam... all right.

Quoting nikkibong: P.S. I would love to see Kleiman debate someone with a strong libertarian/anarchist perspective.

Me too--Maybe Walter Block? http://www.walterblock.com/

1) Kleiman contradicts himself. After establishing the fact that higher cigarette taxes resulted in greater smuggling, he proceeds to offer higher taxes as a solution to curb alcohol abuse. This ignores the fact that at a certain point, taxation levels will lead to smuggling, which will be used by those who abuse alcohol to begin with.

We would have to look carefully at the data. The smuggling problem may be offset by an overall reduction in consumption. (There may be disincentives to participating in the black market). There's probably an optimal high tax you could impose without stimulating much smuggling. You could also crack down on smuggling. It's worth exploring. I voted against California's proposition to double the price of cigarettes. I ultimately decided it was a tax mostly on poor people (like the lottery), but it was a tough decision for me.

2) Kleiman appears to lack an understanding of the role genetics and cognitive processing play in crime. Hope, Mr. Kleiman, will not solve anything. You can not stop a person who is hardwired with a predisposition toward violence and an insufficient processing of long term consequences of actions from ending up

Hi Reihan, I'm sure you've read Monica Ali's "Brick Lane." She is a very widely acclaimed novelist from Dhaka. Hate to stereotype you as the Bangladeshi guy, but it would be cool if you interviewed her on BHeads. Or just talk about the Bangladeshi diaspora. I'm trying to promote more literature and the arts on Bheads. Most Bhead guests apparently don't read fiction

Reihan posted too soon. Mark is a A-list fan favorite around here.

Quoting Wonderment: We would have to look carefully at the data. The smuggling problem may be offset by an overall reduction in consumption. (There may be disincentives to participating in the black market). There's probably an optimal high tax you could impose without stimulating much smuggling. You could also crack down on smuggling. It's worth exploring. I voted against California's proposition to double the price of cigarettes. I ultimately decided it was a tax mostly on poor people (like the lottery), but it was a tough decision for me. ...

Even if it were to reduce consumption would the cost savings from fewer il-health effects offset the costs associated with enforcement in either lives or money. More police, more jails and jailers, more criminals and higher taxes to pay for it all. The prohibition on drugs is costly enough in those terms.

Quoting Wonderment: I'm trying to promote more literature and the arts on Bheads. Most Bhead guests apparently don't read fiction

I read National Review sometimes!

Quoting nikkibong: P.S. I would love to see Kleiman debate someone with a strong libertarian/anarchist perspective.

Do you mean somebody who worships property above all else, or somebody who doesn't believe in private property at all? Because that's going to make a huge difference if you're talking about crime.

Quoting piscivorous: Even if it were to reduce consumption would the cost savings from fewer il-health effects offset the costs associated with enforcement in either lives or money. More police, more jails and jailers, more criminals and higher taxes to pay for it all. The prohibition on drugs is costly enough in those terms.

I don't know how you go from raising the price of beer ten cents a can to prohibition, but it seems a stretch to me. It also seems a stretch to think you would need that many more police, jails, or jailers in response to said tax-hike. The comparison shouldn't be to prohibited substances, but to cigarettes. Just like I have a feeling police budgets weren't raised too much to deal with the cigarette smuggling threat the last time there was a cigarette tax hike, I don't think there would be much need for extra place to deal with a beer tax hike. Going prohibition again might be another story though.

Quoting cognitive madisonian: 1) Kleiman contradicts himself. After establishing the fact that higher cigarette taxes resulted in greater smuggling, he proceeds to offer higher taxes as a solution to curb alcohol abuse. This ignores the fact that at a certain point, taxation levels will lead to smuggling, which will be used by those who abuse alcohol to begin with.

You are conflating two different concepts here. Smuggling and abuse don't seem to be related to me, especially considering how negligible smuggling must be. Even considering how high takes are on cigarettes, how many people actively go out looking for cigarette smugglers to by from? Also, assuming even a percentage do, how much does that contribute to violent crime or any crime besides smuggling? How would that be any different than if one raised the alcohol tax? Smuggling may go up, but it would be negligible or nearly irrelevant compared to lowering of alcohol abuse rates. (Assuming Kleinman's numbers are correct)

Quoting cognitive madisonian: 2) Kleiman appears to lack an understanding of the role genetics and cognitive processing play in crime. Hope, Mr. Kleiman, will not solve anything. You can not stop a person who is hardwired with a predisposition toward violence

Investigative Reports Find Growing Ties Between Cigarette Smuggling and Terrorist Organizations States Go to War on Cigarette Smuggling I guess it really doesn't take prohibition for crime to exist now does it.

Talk about non sequiturs...!!

Unfortunately, Reihan admits he didn't push back enough because Kleiman was just too compelling. You'll have to take up that mission on a future Apollo.

You are conflating two different concepts here. Smuggling and abuse don't seem to be related to me, especially considering how negligible smuggling must be. Even considering how high takes are on cigarettes, how many people actively go out looking for cigarette smugglers to by from? Also, assuming even a percentage do, how much does that contribute to violent crime or any crime besides smuggling? How would that be any different than if one raised the alcohol tax? Smuggling may go up, but it would be negligible or nearly irrelevant compared to lowering of alcohol abuse rates. (Assuming Kleinman's numbers are correct)

To be honest, I'm not particularly familiar with the topic of smuggling, so Kleiman's suggestion that increased taxes on cigarettes created a significant smuggling market (I may have gotten the wrong impression of what he was saying) caught me a little off guard. I'm a non-smoker; the limit of my interaction with anything resembling a smuggling operation was back in my high school days, when a friend would steal cigarette boxes from his place of employment and sell them at school for a discount. But let's establish a few

Quoting claymisher: Do you mean somebody who worships property above all else, or somebody who doesn't believe in private property at all? Because that's going to make a huge difference if you're talking about crime.

Indeed; I'm most interested in hearing Kleiman debate an anti-statist. Something like these guys.

Quoting nikkibong: Indeed; I'm most interested in hearing Kleiman debate an anti-statist. Something like these guys.

I think I'd start moaning pretty loudly about those guys appearing here. I think I'd prefer Preppy's Mises fellow. I'll admit that the sweetly dorky portrait with his presumed partner and a child softens up his Austrian "aura" a bit for me. On the same page of headlines spiked have accused "Greens" of mental illness, and spoken out in support of pedophilia. Yech....

I would love to see Mark debae someone from Critical Resistance like Angela Davis or someone else from a prison abolitionist perspective. Blogingheads has lots of far right ideologes, but I can probably count on one hand the amount of time they've had folks left of the democratic party.

Quoting claymisher: Reihan posted too soon. Mark is a A-list fan favorite around here.

Second that. Also, LOL @.

A couple of responses: 1. Yes, the extremely high taxes on cigarettes have created a smuggling problem. Alcohol taxes are not nearly high enough to make that an issue. In any case, a small market in untaxed alcohol wouldn't do enough damage to counterbalance the reduction in violence that would flow from the reduced consumption brought about by higher taxes. The world is full of tradeoffs; recognizing them is not self-contradiction. 2. The probationers in Hawaii who reduced their rate of new crimes by more than half after they were put on HOPE had exactly the same genes they had before the program. Genetics matters, but genetics isn't everything.

What a great idea! At one point there was a plan to have me debate Angela Davis at Brown, but we couldn't make the scheduling work. I'd be happy to do a diavlog instead.

Quoting MarkARKleiman: A couple of responses:

1. Yes, the extremely high taxes on cigarettes have created a smuggling problem. Alcohol taxes are not nearly high enough to make that an issue. In any case, a small market in untaxed alcohol wouldn't do enough damage to counterbalance the reduction in violence that would flow from the reduced consumption brought about by higher taxes. The world is full of tradeoffs; recognizing them is not self-contradiction.

2. The probationers in Hawaii who reduced their rate of new crimes by more than half after they were put on HOPE had exactly the same genes they had before the program. Genetics matters, but genetics isn't everything.

Thanks for the response. You make some fair points, and without reading much more into the HOPE program, I'll refrain from further response on it. I'm glad that we're on common ground on genetics playing a role--yes, I will agree that they are not the be all end all. On the topic of future discussions, I'd love to see a discussion with someone such as Sarnoff Mednick.

Forget Bob Wright playing to the Gang of 12. Here, Mark panders to the math nerds!

Quoting cognitive madisonian: I didn't quite finish the segment, but unless I missed anything that would solve this, a few points:

1) Kleiman contradicts himself. After establishing the fact that higher cigarette taxes resulted in greater smuggling, he proceeds to offer higher taxes as a solution to curb alcohol abuse. This ignores the fact that at a certain point, taxation levels will lead to smuggling, which will be used by those who abuse alcohol to begin with.

As you say, 'at a certain point, taxation levels will lead to smuggling.' I believe that alcohol taxes are well below that point, and cigarette taxes (in places such as New York City) are at or near that point.

2) Kleiman appears to lack an understanding of the role genetics and cognitive processing play in crime. Hope, Mr. Kleiman, will not solve anything. You can not stop a person who is hardwired with a predisposition toward violence and an insufficient processing of long term consequences of actions from ending up committing a crime. Generally, the more comfortable their life is, the less likely they are to commit a crime, but they are a ticking time bomb no matter what.

The data from the Hope project speaks

Sorry, in the process of setting up an account and getting distracted on bloggingheads and looking for links I didn't notice that Kleiman gave his own response before I did.

Mark goes there ... wait for it, wait for it.

Angela Davis at Brown, but we couldn't make the scheduling work. I'd be happy to do a diavlog instead.

THAT would be awesome. Please suggest it to Bob. He'll listen to you

Quoting Wonderment: Hi Reihan,

I'm sure you've read Monica Ali's "Brick Lane." She is a very widely acclaimed novelist from Dhaka.

Hate to stereotype you as the Bangladeshi guy, but it would be cool if you interviewed her on BHeads. Or just talk about the Bangladeshi diaspora.

I'm trying to promote more literature and the arts on Bheads. Most Bhead guests apparently don't read fiction

What gives you the impression that most Bheads don't read fiction? Granted, other than George Johnson I haven't heard them talk about it but being bookish types I would hazard to guess many of them at some time in their lives have been lovers of literature. Sure, I would like to hear more about fiction on BHTV since I like to read; however, for whatever reason the powers to be haven't taken that track. John

Fascinating and informative diavlog. Thank you. Can't wait to read the book.

Ha! Once again, courtesy of Blogginghead's sistersite, The Drudge Report:
"(No background music) School kids taught to praise Obama"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrsl8o4ZPo

Quoting cousincozen: Ha! Once again, courtesy of Blogginghead's sistersite, The Drudge Report:
"(No background music) School kids taught to praise Obama"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrsl8o4ZPo

Malkin's been shrieking hysterically about this, too. (No link.)

I'd be happy to have him say the same things a dozen more times: unlike those in most diavlogs, these are issues society tends to ignore rather than debate. If someone deeply immersed in these issues is ready to "take the other side," by all means let's have them--but to the extent the status quo is indefensible, it becomes harder to find a credible defender.

Quoting nikkibong: I love Kleiman - he's one of my favourite 'heads - but we've heard all of this before. I'm well into the second segment, and have yet to hear anything I haven't heard in previous Kleiman diavlogs.

It's the Evolution of God all over again!

P.S. I would love to see Kleiman debate someone with a strong libertarian/anarchist perspective.

Quoting AemJeff: Malkin's been shrieking hysterically about this, too. (No link.)

Yep. And I see that she's made her usual preemptive strike ...

We already know what the response will be to critics of this elementary school agitprop: Raaaaaacist!

... which, in her twisted little mind, means she is now free to say any racist thing she wants.

Quoting bjkeefe: Yep. And I see that she's made her usual preemptive strike ...

... which, in her twisted little mind, means she is now free to say any racist thing she wants.

Let's help her out. It's pretty clear to me that the author of "In praise of Interment" is either a flaming Raaaaaacist or she has no moral compunction about utilizing racist themes when that's convenient. For the googlebots: Michelle Malkin is a racist.

Yes, well, it's almost as good as tax advice about using "undocumented," under-aged Honduran girls to run a brothel. I can't wait for what's next!

Wait! Can "people of color" be racist?? I thought, according to The Little Red Style Guide, it wasn't possible.

Quoting cousincozen: Yes, well, it's almost as good as tax advice about using "undocumented," under-aged Honduran girls to run a brothel.

I can't wait for what's next!

Do be sure to believe everything posted at Breitbart, Pajamas, Drudge, et al, without question. Particularly when it fits your worldview. Police report filed by Acorn exposes false claims...

Lumberjack edition!

Quoting cousincozen: Wait! Can "people of color" be racist?? I thought, according to The Little Red Style Guide, it wasn't possible.

You'll have to ask your hero about that.

innocent until proven guilty? why is it such a hard concept for people to understand. http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/226...9:08&out=49:23 you can do better, Mark!

innocent until proven guilty? why is it such a hard concept for people to understand.

I'm sure he understands that. I think his point is that DAs almost always negotiate plea bargains with people who are out on bail, but often they wait till the last minute. Perhaps Mark is suggesting early plea bargain negotiations with people when they make bail, i.e, get them into the drug program, and if they comply between bail release and trial date charges will be dropped. Of course, they can always say, "I refuse to enter a rehab program" (and wait till the judge sentences them to one) or "I'm innocent. Screw you." The incentive really has nothing to do with violating the presumption of innocence. It's just about early intervention, as opposed to delayed intervention. Prosecutors also negotiate with people who can't make bail, but presumably we don't worry about that group dealing and consuming drugs while in pre-trial detention. If I have this wrong, Mark can hopefully clarify.

Ditto! How about a book club?

These diavlogs could use a regular diet of statistics.

Professor Kleiman: Do you have a link or other information about HOPE? In the early 90s I was an intern for an Non-profit early-release program in Baltimore. We had a very small staff, and I left the organization quite frazzled and embittered. Is HOPE a state-funded program with employees, or a non-profit? Where I worked was also a bit entrepreneurial: I had to initiate contacts with agencies and rehab programs. Is HOPE better organized?

As requested, a HOPE link. It's a new way of enforcing probation conditions, run by the probation department, not a non-profit. I'm hoping to see it extended to parole, to juvenile offenders, and to those released pre-trial. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...7.kleiman.html

Thank you.

Hope, Mr. Kleiman, will not solve anything. You can not stop a person who is hardwired with a predisposition toward violence and an insufficient processing of long term consequences of actions from ending up committing a crime.

Kleiman did a good job of making the case throughout this dialogue that you can. If you have better evidence that shows you can't, let's see it.
Also, he didn't mean hope as in hope, he meant it as in the acronym for the program he was talking about.

New Zealand and Australia have higher crime rates than the United States.

Really. They certainly don't have higher violent crime rates. New Zealand's violent crime rate is four times lower than the US's. Australia's violent crime rate is slightly lower than NZ's. Where are you getting your statistics?

Quoting cousincozen: Wait! Can "people of color" be racist?? I thought, according to The Little Red Style Guide, it wasn't possible.

It depends on how you define racism, a subtle point you may or may not care about.

Here's a conservative Republican who is very upset because (he says) his college professor told him that only whites can be racist.

Quoting cousincozen: Yes, well, it's almost as good as tax advice about using "undocumented," under-aged Honduran girls to run a brothel.

I can't wait for what's next!

Where "what's next" means, not scandal, but scandal that serves the lunatic agenda of the Republican Party. Right? Because there are real scandals getting next to no coverage, while you and the wingnut media scapegoat an organization dedicating to improving the lives of the downtrodden. Such as, possibly, a Bush Administration scheme to funnel a trillion dollars to big oil. Typical wingnut. Keep picking on poor people. Especially non-white poor people. It is what defines you, and your party. It's what makes you proud to be a conservative. .

Quoting cousincozen: tax advice about using "undocumented," under-aged Honduran girls to run a brothel.

Oh, about that:

Police say a worker with the activist group ACORN who was caught on video giving advice about human smuggling to a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute had reported the incident to authorities.

National City police said Monday that Juan Carlos Vera contacted his cousin, a police detective, to get advice on what to with information on possible human smuggling.

Vera was secretly filmed on Aug. 18 as part of a young couple’s high-profile expose.

Police say he contacted law enforcement two days later. The detective consulted another police official who served on a federal human smuggling task force, who said he needed more details.

The ACORN employee responded several days later and explained that the information he received was not true and he had been duped.

I don't know if the wingnuts, lunatics, or Republicans who are bashing ACORN have ever spent any time in an densely populated urban setting, but when you do, you occasionally run into bad people. Criminals, and a few crazy people. And what you do when they are in your presence is you

Police say a worker with the activist group ACORN who was caught on video giving advice about human smuggling to a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute had reported the incident to authorities.

National City police said Monday that Juan Carlos Vera contacted his cousin, a police detective, to get advice on what to with information on possible human smuggling.

Oh, and the touching coda:

Vera was fired on Thursday.

See what good the wingnuts O'Keefe and Giles have wrought?

I really wish you hadn't appropriated a Stones lyric as your signature.

Singapore has a third the incarceration rate of the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate Kleinman advocates making punishment harsh, but brief and immediate. How does Singapore contradict this?

Maybe I am missing something here, but is all Mark advocating that we give out more numerous smaller sentences instead of bulking many offenses into one package deal and giving fewer jumbo sentences?

I just want to shout out that Kleinman did what was perhaps the best bloggingheads ever with McArdle a couple of years back. Mark is so fascinating its hard not to come away with a "most important social science book in some years" type response as Reihan does. So the deal is less crime, less punishment, and less tax dollars - where do I sign up? You think there there has to be a reason why Kleinman's policies aren't being taken up more widely. Is he overselling the goods? You want for there to be someone to debate Mark on the details, but I just don't know who that person could be. It's odd that there aren't more professionals who study crime or addiction in the public discourse when these topics are clearly fascinating to laymen, and at the same time so vitally important. What happened to sociologists (that's what it is right?) that their airspace was left to be taken over by economists and politicos?

Not much to add, of substance. Great diavlog. Kleiman is probably the most consistently interesting voice on the Left here at bhTv. His book is on my next-up list (sorry Bob.) Thanks to both Reihan and Mark. I could have gone a whole nother hour on this subject with these two.

I'm about 40 pages into Kleiman's book and I must say that it lives up to the hype. Really one of the most thought-provoking things I have read in a long time. I highly recommend it. There's even some pretty detailed game-theory in there that I think fans of Nonzero would enjoy. I would love to see a follow up diavlog with Mark and maybe Glen Loury on how to take these ideas about crime and try to sell them politically without committing career suicide.