For all you whites living in Portland, Oregon and other "white" liberal cities let me say... Racist! Racist! Racist!

Given Reihan's oft-professed admiration for Sarkozy, I think his citing "voices that I consider pretty credible" should send up red flags when he takes the mic on Turkey. Reihan knows a lot about a lot, but Turkish politics is not a strength of his. If you're only going to pay attention to one Turkey-related item on the internet today, skip this reheated dishwater and sink your teeth into Rob Farley's righteous pwn of the "Turkey's Turning Toward Islamism" meme.

Quoting Lyle: For all you whites living in Portland, Oregon and other "white" liberal cities let me say... Racist! Racist! Racist!

First of all, I've not watched this diavlog, but the contention I see on the menu that "cities liberals love are overwhelmingly white" seems a bit off. For one, the city that liberals love, New York, is hardly the epitome of honkeydum. Same for DC, which is enjoying a liberal renaissance, as evidenced by the presence of self-proclaimed lefty luminaries like Matthew Yglesias and Conor Clarke. Also, rather troubling is the fact that blacks themselves are one of the most liberal groups in the United States. It seems to follow, therefore, that cities that have a lot of black people tend to be more liberal. So, what, they don't count? Turning to matters closer to home, yes, the Unbearable Whiteness of Portland has been the occasion for much hand-wringing among our liberal denizens. But it's not a matter of institutionalized racism (anymore). Lack of work saw to it that very few people (including southern blacks) migrated to Oregon. With little agricultural or manufacturing work to spur them, why would they have moved to Portland? For fair-trade coffee and pussified "rock" music?

Haha... lovely. Although cities with black majorities or large black populations tend to be Democrat they aren't necessarily all liberal. Many blacks remain social conservatives even though they vote Democrat. It wasn't just Mormons who defeated the gay marriage initiative in California, you know. You know this though.

It's hard to maintain the standard liberal worldview when these data are reified. In Seattle, the numbers are different. I know it's not pleasant to point to these things, but Dayo and Reihan should be willing to make some passing reference to the stats. The warm, fuzzy feeling Dayo was talking about is easier to maintain when you have little fear that someone's about to get shot. We could have a really great multi-party diavlog on this issue involving Brian Beutler, Megan McArdle, and any of several other DC bloggers.

I'd like to watch that blorgy too.

Quoting nikkibong: For fair-trade coffee and pussified "rock" music?

Save it for the Weekly Standard.

Portland squares off! My money's on the old guy.

Don't really understand the fuss about "White Cities". Most of these cities have large non-white populations, they just have less than average Black populations. And BTW, why is San Francisco not mentioned? Large Asian population, but if look at Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, Marin, SF - not many blacks. Plus the reason NW cities, Minneapolis, etc. have fewer blacks is because Black people didn't want to move there! I've know several AA in Portland who dream of leaving and going back to Memphis, DC or Atlanta - no more cold weather and more AA culture.

Quoting claymisher: Save it for the Weekly Standard.

Not much in the way of rock criticism published there, I'm afraid. But, I didn't realize that disliking ball-less and soulless "indie" bands, whose sound is utterly divorced from rock's blues roots, was somehow a "conservative" (or neo-con?) position. Are the Decemberists the new front of the culture wars?

I don't know about Houston, but I live near Atlanta and the reality is that the city is split right down the middle with the southern half (including suburbs) being almost entirely black and the northern half entirely white. Downtown is a maze of concrete and freeways, one of the most pedestrian-unfriendly, inhospitable, spaces imaginable. And why did nobody mention that other "whitopia" liberals love: the whole state of Vermont? The truth is that America is well down the road to a racially-stratified class society with blacks, browns, and working-class whites on the bottom and a tiny Asian/Anglo/Ashkenazi elite at the top. And to compound it all, the few at the top have promoted trade and immigration policies that enrich themselves at the expense of the three biggest ethnic groups in America, blacks most of all. Ditto for foreign policies in which the latter do all the fighting and dying and the former wonder whether they are "mature enough" to be consulted on the matter. Whatever happened to the idea of government "of the people, by the people, and for the people?" Why in hell did we fight the Civil War? Hand-wringing and promises

Quoting BornAgainDemocrat: ...
The truth is that America is well down the road to a racially-stratified class society with blacks, browns, and working-class whites on the bottom and a tiny Asian/Anglo/Ashkenazi elite at the top. And to compound it all, the few at the top have promoted trade and immigration policies that enrich themselves at the expense of the three biggest ethnic groups in America, blacks most of all. Ditto for foreign policies in which the latter do all the fighting and dying and the former wonder whether they are "mature enough" to be consulted on the matter...

I wonder if the current black millionaire President would find that part of you comment racist?

Hey, its not just the whites living in Portland that are racists. Its all the asians too. I don't deny that by virtue of my white skin and living in Portland that I'm a racist. Thats obvious. But if asians don't count as one of the "other" races then they have to be racist too if they don't have enough blacks or Mexicans in their city. This is sorta personal for me: its a matter of the balance of marital virtue. If I'm a racist then my wife (India born-n-raised, and darker than most Mexicans and quite a few "blacks") has to be as well. After all, she too came from a stable family, values education and has never committed an act of violence against another person in her life. Even worse, she supports preservation of green spaces, local agriculture and walkable communities even if it drives up house prices. When I get home I'm going to take great joy in pointing at her and saying "Racist! Racist! Racist!" We'll then go to the local KKK chapter (they're all over town - cleverly disguised as coffee shops) and sign right up. I'm sure we'll fit right in!

Dayo how many "Eastern European Turks" did you really talk to? Camman! That sounds like the classic cock and bull story the Turks like to tell about Turkey being the home for poor persecuted Muslims. So they've taken back there colonizers and sympathizers so has all of the other former great colonial powers! Surprise, Surprise no mention of Cyprus and the Turkish 35 year illegal occupation! Typical Americans here I'm dissappointed in you there Reihan!

Racism wow! Dayo way to be a defender of a country who killed millions of Armenians, Greeks and cleansed the rest.

Born again Dem your a jackass if you look at the took participants of this debate the are neither Anglo, Jewish or Asian. But they did go to swanky colleges.

You should, you should! That will be funny! It's fun calling people racists who would never expect to be called such. I'll be visiting Portland soon and can't wait to observe all you racists in your natural habitat. Just so we know how honkyfied (hat tip nikkibong) Portland is: http://www.helloportland.com/Census.Cfm White 75.5%
Black 6.6%
Asian 6.3%
Hispanic 6.8%
Bi-racial 4.1%
Native/Poly 0.4%

I should surely hope not!

Hope that's why the man was elected or so I'm told!

Quoting SpikeTedAgnew: Born again Dem your a jackass if you look at the took participants of this debate the are neither Anglo, Jewish or Asian. But they did go to swanky colleges.

In point of fact Reihan Salam is one of my favorite Asians! As for why Dayo and Obama and the entire Congressional Black Caucus have yet to speak out in opposition to massive low-skilled immigration the way Cesar Chavez did, and Samuel Gompers before him, is a mystery to me. Are they afraid of being labeled racists? If so, they should take heart in the fact that a majority of Hispanic Americans are also opposed. When she was Chairman of the American Civil Rights commission, Barbara Jordon, whom some suspected of being God disguised as a black woman, spoke powerfully to the issue: "As a nation with a long history of immigration and commitment to the rule of law, this country must set limits on who can enter and then credibly enforce our immigration law....we disagree with those who would label efforts to control immigration as being inherently anti-immigrant. Rather, it is both a right and a

Quoting rcocean: Don't really understand the fuss about "White Cities". Most of these cities have large non-white populations, they just have less than average Black populations. And BTW, why is San Francisco not mentioned? Large Asian population, but if look at Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, Marin, SF - not many blacks.

Plus the reason NW cities, Minneapolis, etc. have fewer blacks is because Black people didn't want to move there! I've know several AA in Portland who dream of leaving and going back to Memphis, DC or Atlanta - no more cold weather and more AA culture.

Ta-Nehisi hears ya: http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.c..._a_problem.php

Quoting rcocean: I've know several AA in Portland who dream of leaving and going back to Memphis, DC or Atlanta - no more cold weather and more AA culture.

Pffft, hogwash. Portland has a robust AA scene: http://www.pdxaa.com/

Surprise, Surprise no mention of Cyprus and the Turkish 35 year illegal occupation! Typical Americans here I'm dissappointed in you there Reihan![/quote] "Typical American"? Cypurs is an issue that the international community failed to address at its outset and without Turkish intervention we wouldn't be talking about Cyprus the country, but another beautiful Greek island devoid of a Turkish population that Turks have been inhabiting since the more brutal times of the Ottoman Empire. To label them as "typical Americans" when ignoring the historical context of this problem seems to me to be typically American in its short sidedness.

@Bob/staff reschedule these two to do another talk on race and cities post haste!!!!!!!!! it was getting interesting there and then, lights out.

Quoting nikkibong: ...

Turning to matters closer to home, yes, the Unbearable Whiteness of Portland has been the occasion for much hand-wringing among our liberal denizens. But it's not a matter of institutionalized racism (anymore). Lack of work saw to it that very few people (including southern blacks) migrated to Oregon. With little agricultural or manufacturing work to spur them, why would they have moved to Portland? For fair-trade coffee and pussified "rock" music?

It's not even unique to the white population though. Different racial groups tend to associate with their own group. I saw it in my high school. There were spheres of associations, and of course there were friendships that were more general, but on average, there tended to be racial clusters. At the time my old school was around 55% hispanic 45% black, 5% other. My own "spheres" of interactions were more broad, but then I am sort of mixed so never identified strongly with any one group, at least not based on race. I liked hanging around the smart kids and the band kids (they are like carnie folk, very strange group the band members).
I do not think the characteristic stratification is malevolent, or that "society" must be the core cause in

If you look at a map of black population distribution by percentage of county (including maps drawn from the 2000 census data), you'll see that apart from a few outlier cities like Chicago & Los Angeles, black people mostly live in the old South, especially along the Mississippi up to St. Louis, and in the eastern seaboard states up to New York City. Even distribution of black population in Texas looks a little like what I'd imagine overall population distribution in that state looked like at the time of the Civil War. Isn't the most obvious explanation for where black people live and don't live the one Dayo calls "crude" in the dialogue? -- African Americans are mostly descendants of people brought here as slaves to work on Southern plantations. Maybe the most important question is why are black people as a group content to live where their parents lived, relative to other Americans (apart from a movement north in the Eastern states)? Two explanations suggest themselves: (1) poverty; (2) if we break down the mostly bogus construct of "white" ethnicity into more coherent immigrant groups (English ancestry, German ancestry, Irish, Italian, Polish, etc.) and look

I lived for a year in Beaverton while working on a project a couple years ago. Every two weeks, I would ride the public transit to/from the airport. You had to buy a ticket before boarding and if you couldn't present it to the transportation cop when requested, you were fined. The exception to this rule was when the train was traveling through downtown Portland and the first six or so stops on the east side. The locals ignored the rules and the cops did not try to enforce it. But in the suburbs they were very strict at getting their $$$$. I would say Portland is a model liberal city.

White 75.5%
Black 6.6%
Asian 6.3%
Hispanic 6.8%
Bi-racial 4.1%
Native/Poly 0.4%

Portland may still have relatively few hispanics but there's a massive influx in Oregon since they started issuing drivers licenses to anyone who requests one. Go to Hillsborough or Salem or any town up the valley. Our contractors had a lot of trouble doing background checks on the applicants for labor because none of them had any background at all. If any of them was involved in a complaint or a traffic accident, they just disappeared.

"Typical American"? Cypurs is an issue that the international community failed to address at its outset and without Turkish intervention we wouldn't be talking about Cyprus the country, but another beautiful Greek island devoid of a Turkish population that Turks have been inhabiting since the more brutal times of the Ottoman Empire. To label them as "typical Americans" when ignoring the historical context of this problem seems to me to be typically American in its short sidedness.[/quote] Factcheck The super majority of Cypriots never sought independence at the outset of resistence to the British. The British Empire forced independence on the Cypriots. The vast majority wanted union with Greece. Other facts you and other Turkophile Americans should be aware of Turks still live peacebly in Greece (western Thrace) per the 23 population exchange agreement unlike the Greek of Constantinope who were forcible expelled in programs in the 50's and 60's. The Turkish population which was significanly (before the program of colonization instituted by the Turkish military state)smaller at the time of the illegal and brutal invasion of the island. It was typically

Quoting nikkibong: Ta-Nehisi hears ya:

http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.c..._a_problem.php

Thanks for the link. I liked this by Coates:

I think the implicit argument that these cities should be "doing more" to assure that their black population meets the national average is odious.

Except, I'd substitute the words "Stupid" or "Waste of Time" for "odious".

I'll throw in another word: "silly." John

The Republican out on Afghanistan if it becomes Viet Nam-style unpopular would be to say that, though they supported the war, Obama did it the wrong way. And of course Republicans would embrace that sort of hypocrisy.

Point (2) has merit I think. You can just go and look up antebellum slave/free black population numbers by county/parish and find that the percentage of blacks to whites or whatever hasn't changed a whole lot. It fluctuates over time for sure, but not by a lot in most places. Apparently there is also a reverse migration trend going on now and more blacks are moving back into old Confederate states than those moving out of the South to the north or west.

There a numerous stratagems floating around out there about what to do in Afghanistan. President Obama is going to have to choose one. Which one he chooses could very well be the difference between success and failure. Yet you have already determined that if it fails it wont be the President's fault? What! Are we playing Monopoly and the President gets a Get Out Of Jail Free Card on Afghanistan? If he chooses one that works will he get your accolades for being oh so wise?

Quoting nikkibong: Are the Decemberists the new front of the culture wars?

I'm afraid you're awfully late to this dance.

Y'know, I guess I shouldn't ever be surprised at what comes out of the mouth of someone who was insisting until halfway through this past spring that Sarah Palin was qualified to be president, but for Reihan to say not once, but twice, that the Democratic effort to accomplish a legislative goal they have been pursuing for close to three times as many years as he has been alive is JUST LIKE BUSH's efforts to push the invasion of Iraq has got to be the most ludicrous false equivalence I have ever heard. Thanks very little to Bh.tv for having yet another diavlog featuring an extremist right-winger paired with a squishy centrist who is so bent on "seeing both sides" that she won't even blink, let alone push back, in the face of such unbearable nonsense.

Reihan an extremist right-winger? Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle.

Quoting Lyle: Reihan an extremist right-winger? Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle.

Congratulations. You learned a synonym for "haha." Your opinion remains of zero relevance, however.

What's chuckle, chuckle, chuckle about your claim is I'm pretty sure you've praised Reihan before for being a kind of cool conservative, or a conservative you enjoy hearing from. Yet, now, he's an extremist right-winger to be disdained. Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle.

Quoting Lyle: What's chuckle, chuckle, chuckle about your claim is I'm pretty sure you've praised Reihan before for being a kind of cool conservative, or a conservative you enjoy hearing from. Yet, now, he's an extremist right-winger to be disdained. Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle.

I considered explaining this to you, but then I realized the fact that you would even have bothered typing the above says you'd just continue not to understand, or continue to pretend not to. Find someone else to have your meaningless "haha" exchanges with.

Yes, explain to the world how Reihan is an extremist right-winger now and how that jives with your past praise of him.

That didn't go as well as I'd hoped. She looked at me like I was crazy so I started to explain. She looked confused for a few moments then told me she didn't care, handed me the baby and said "He needs to be changed." I never got to the part about going down to Starbucks and signing up for the KKK. Anyway, as you might guess, I much prefer the term "lifestyle elitist" to "racist." And you'll get to experience the benefits of being in a lifestyle elitist community soon! If you like beer (and I'm not sure why I'm communicating with you if you don't) you'll certainly want to join our pleasant little growth-bounded community. There's lots of great local brews available to residents and visitors alike - unless you're black. Then it doesn't matter what you order. They'll just assume you said "Old English 800" and serve you that - but in a pint glass so you don't feel discriminated against. Gots to keep up our racist cred! Enjoy your stay!

Haha... good times, good times.

How long will the diagonal staircase comprising of Lyle and Bjkeefe last? Stay tuned to find out!

Quoting Starwatcher162536: How long will the diagonal staircase comprising of Lyle and Bjkeefe last? Stay tuned to find out!

Your modifier appears redundant, and your preposition (or verb tense) is incorrect. In any case, I'm not going to contribute to it further. Sorry for any disappointment.

Quoting bjkeefe: Your modifier appears redundant, and your preposition (or verb tense) is incorrect.

In any case, I'm not going to contribute to it further. Sorry for any disappointment.

I was all set to tweak you, since any direct response to SW's post would fallen right into the pattern he was highlighting. Instead, I offer a salute for attention to detail.

Two thumbs down for the Bloggingheads editor who inserted the word "liberal" into the description of this bit between Reihan & Dayo. They weren't talking about liberals, they were talking about upper-middle-class white people. "Liberal" is not synonymous with "upper-middle class, latte-drinking urban dweller", although that's one stereotype of someone who votes Democratic.

Quoting AemJeff: I was all set to tweak you, since any direct response to SW's post would fallen right into the pattern he was highlighting. Instead, I offer a salute for attention to detail.

Heh. Thanks for noticing. ;^)

Yeah, I don't even really remember what an adverb is, so whatever your saying is going right over my head. You do have to admit, that in terms of information content per post, the back and forths between you an Lyle have to be among the lowest of the low. I really don't understand why you two bother to respond to each other at this point.

Quoting Starwatcher162536: Yeah, I don't even really remember what an adverb is, so whatever your saying is going right over my head.

To a first approximation, an adverb is a word that modifies a verb (obnoxiously speaking) or an adjective (unbearably pedantic). (More here.) In English, they usually end in -ly, but not always. Your is a possessive pronoun. For the contraction of you are, you want you're. (You're welcome.)

You do have to admit, that in terms of information content per post, the back and forths between you an Lyle have to be among the lowest of the low. I really don't understand why you two bother to respond to each other at this point.

First, I stopped after two of my own responses, before you even said anything. Second, I can't be responsible for what Lyle writes. Third, it's been quite a while since I've bothered to respond to Lyle at all, so I'm unsure why you're [ahem] picking now to complain. Fourth, it's hard to see how your [ahem] weighing in adds anything but more noise. Why not just ignore an obvious ladder?

You might ought to get back to your cows and crap gridiron team Aggie. And you should take your own advice and just not respond.

Mmmmm.....cowtipping....

Am I wrong, but didn't Salam say in previous diavlogs, that his mature interests tend more to domestic issues, not foreign policy. At first glance, I was agnostic about this pairing talking mostly, judging by the thread titles, on foreign policy issues. Now, the diavlog as it plays makes me a supporter of niches and specialties. Olopade I think is too much of an insider, who doesn't have a core to interfere with the need to compromise, but sees all positions as equally cheap. Salam also needs an interlocutor who can deal with his rambles. Heather Hurlburt?

Haha... good times, good times.

How dare you get enjoyment out of someone not only responding that you aren't worth a response, but forming a side discussion on how you're not worth a response? The money shot (so far) had to be the accusation that criticism amounted to 'more noise'. 11,000+ posts and the quality is still not there. Remember when some of the clique were condemning Dubya for his desire to suppress free speech and in another post demanding Mickey Kaus be kicked off BHTV? Good times indeed.

Y'know, I guess I shouldn't ever be surprised at what comes out of the mouth of someone who was insisting until halfway through this past spring that Sarah Palin was qualified to be president.....

There were even people who were insisting that Barack Obama was qualified to be president, but those numbers are shrinking.

Turkey's accession into the EU will be a good thing, not just for the secular elite in Istanbul, but perhaps also for the un-integrated Turkish minorities in Germany and elsewhere. Multiculturalism has failed to assimilate immigrants, so maybe the line that "we're all European's now" will help change things. Although to be honest, I find it hard to feel kinship with my fellow Europeans at the best of times; I can deal with the Free Trade area and other bits of necessary collective action but not the president, the flag, the joint foreign policy and the Court of Human Rights. And I suspect the majority of Turks will feel the same way.