Cartoon time. Moses, Superman, The Ten Commandments, Cecil B. De Mille. Listening to this, I could only think that the United States is the most backward country in the western world.

Quoting Francoamerican: Cartoon time. Moses, Superman, The Ten Commandments, Cecil B. De Mille.

Listening to this, I could only think that the United States is the most backward country in the western world.

But you love us for our film directors (auteurs to you!) anyway.

I'm listening to this diavlog (~20 minutes) as I write this, and I already have another troubling association with Moses and America I don't believe Feiler has or will point out. I had my own epiphany at Jamestown in 2007 during the 400th anniversary celebrations, and it's related to my family's Seminole background. My father was very conservative and a Lutheran Christian; my mother was more liberal and a quarter-blood Seminole with a strong interest in her family's history. I also have a South Korean wife, and I identify with her own grievances. Groups of explorers and religious dissenters, et al might have sought a refuge across the sea, but they despoiled someone else's home. Like Moses, these refugees entered a land that became disputed territory because of the megalomania of leaders who had little or no interest in what the inhabitants wanted. As for Biblical precedents, in the Lutheran Bible, Maccabees is canonical, but not in subsequent Protestant editions. I note the irony of a Judaean population protested against Hellenic influences enough to revolt and an earlier group of Hebrew refugees willfully entering the promised land. And then, apply that to American history.

Quoting Baltimoron: As for Biblical precedents, in the Lutheran Bible, Maccabees is canonical, but not in subsequent Protestant editions. I note the irony of a Judaean population protested against Hellenic influences enough to revolt and an earlier group of Hebrew refugees willfully entering the promised land. And then, apply that to American history.

could you explain that further? i think you lost me and it sounds interesting.

But you love us for our film directors (auteurs to you!) anyway.

Who could refuse Audrey Hepburn! I guess to live in a desert with sheep herders, a woman would need a really awesome rack! Then again, if Audrey stopped me in the desert I might have just ditched the Israelites.

Groups of explorers and religious dissenters, et al might have sought a refuge across the sea, but they despoiled someone else's home.

Yes, that indigenous spiritual universe was ignored and in many places completely destroyed. The Western pattern of conquista and colonialism throughout the world was paternalistic (and vicious if the natives were not cooperative). The backward and "godless" pagans had to be Christianized (or die). Nobody relied on Moses to commit genocide (although the God of the OT was expert at that too). Instead, they turned to Jesus, preaching the Good News and Baptism to the Noble (or at turns Demonic) Savages. The Israelis (authors of New and Old Testament) pulled a latter-day version of this with Zionism. Although colonialism was virtually dead in 1948, Zionism managed to treat the natives as if they were Indians. Anyway, I tend to come down on Bob's side of the chicken-egg debate here. Cultures grab whatever mythology is handy in order to pursue their political agendas, as opposed to the mythology determining the agendas. It's not strictly either-or, but more the former than the latter.

The Moses connection to Obama is iron clad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mopkn0lPzM8

On a side note, anyone who names their daughter Darwina should be reported for child abuse.

Protestants are Judaizers. This is news?

Curiously resonant.

I agree the extent, that when looking for broad theories of human action, impersonal materialist forces are handy. It's the notion of individuals affecting humanity that becomes problematic, and where ideas enter through trying to comprehend motivations.

First and Second Maccabees is a wonderful tale of how a small country reacts to the trendy globalization of the day - Hellenism. It also sets up the political back story of the Gospels. A small grooup of conservative, elite Judaeans resents the growing influence of Greek culture in Judaism and Judaean life - the baths full of naked bodies, the games, theaters, and the use of Greek. A father and his two sons leads a revolt and re-establishes a more conservative, purified religious revival with a new group of priests in Jerusalem, vowing never to bow again to foreign influence. This is all consummated I believe two generations before the Romans conquer the region, but the Maccabbeean Judaea is the one the Romans dealt with. This for me is the America we recognize today- not Moses, not the neoclassicism, but this mistrust of foreign influences - read Europe - threatening to besmirch the true Zion.

Quoting Baltimoron: As for Biblical precedents, in the Lutheran Bible, Maccabees is canonical, but not in subsequent Protestant editions.

Machabees is also found at the end of the Old Testament in the Roman Catholic Bible.

Anyone else read "Doubt: A History" by Jennifer Hecht? It's really terrific. It's a historical tour of all the world's religions (so you learn plenty about religion) and their contemporary skeptics. Normally when you read about religions you get them in their purified form, but in "Doubt" you get them in their messy multicultural sociopolitical contexts. That's where I first learned about Hellenized Judeans, among other things. The author ought to be on bhtv sometime.

Yeah I bet Maccabbees, Monty Python, and Ben-Hur are not good sources about Hellenized Judaeans!

Quoting claymisher: Anyone else read "Doubt: A History" by Jennifer Hecht? It's really terrific.

It sounds terrific! Thanks for the tip. Going to art museums especially makes me want such a thing. The endless, ponderous christianity in a big hall of paintings, with no contemporary skeptics to bump it up against, drains all the air out of the room for me.

Feiler risks coming across as a Jewish chauvinist. In any event the Moses vs. Jesus shtick is not necessarily either/or. In my reading Christianity (Jesus) established the material foundations which made Old Testament (Mosaic) liberal values of freedom and justice possible. Certainly those values weren't going anywhere before Christianity established itself as an autonomous force in the world at the time of the Reformation. In other words the relationship is instrumental. One might argue whether the ends justified the means, but that is a different question. A terrible human price was paid to build the modern world.

Quoting badhatharry: Machabees is also found at the end of the Old Testament in the Roman Catholic Bible.

I'm pretty sure it's actually Apocrypha in the Lutheran Bible, as well as other Protestant Bibles, although a lot of them will include the Apocrypha with the canonical books. As you reference, the Catholic Church considers it canonical.

Quoting claymisher: Anyone else read "Doubt: A History" by Jennifer Hecht? It's really terrific.

It sounds really interesting, thanks.

That's where I first learned about Hellenized Judeans, among other things.

Surprising that we don't know more about them, given how critical Herod (aka Agrippa) was for the New Testament stories. I suppose it's just as well; if Christians had thought of the Herodian line as Jews, it would have inspired even more anti-Semitism in Europe (if such a thing is possible). The Maccabees stories were also downplayed in Jewish tradition for centuries. The book (different from the Christian version) was not in the Torah (Gen., Ex, Deut, Num. and Levit.) nor in the Tanakh (Old Testament). The observance, Hanukah, was for many centuries a minor matter, not requiring religious observance at all (unlike Passover, Rosh Ha-shanah, the Sabbath and several other holy days). Now however, Hanukah, is the most widely observed Jewish holiday. It owes it resurgence to two reasons. 1) Competing with Christmas, especially as a children's holiday and a dead-of-winter solstice holiday (the "Festival of Lights"). In Christian Europe, the Jews developed their own "Christmas" festivities. 2) The resurgence of Zionism. The Zionists loved both the anti-assimilationist aspects of the story as well as the warrior-defending-the-Jewish-state aspect. Plus, it had little theological weight. Secular Zionists could embrace Hanukah as a holiday the rabbis didn't care about

Quoting Wonderment: It's all about Moses: the kind of just-so story that Bob is enamored of.

The Fasting Feiler Thesis ?

Interesting article, Bong.

One point in the jesus camp, the mentioning of the battle hymm of the republic I think the inspiration for, and message of the battle hymm is a much greater uplifter for soldiers going into battle than many other songs with other themes. It is like it sort of steels the soul to suffer more, possibly death, for the sake of others. There is a selfless character to it. So while moses and the old testament may be the standard bearer, it sometimes takes a back seat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWYZAnVSGKY#t=2m warning to pagans or worse, contains images of religious people singing.

Onward, Christian soldiers!

I think the inspiration for, and message of the battle hymm is a much greater uplifter for soldiers going into battle than many other songs with other themes.

Killing for Jesus is a really bad idea, especially considering he was a pacifist. You might make a better case for slaying others with Krishna. Gandhi had to turn the Bhagavad-Gita upside down and inside out to derive pacifism from that story. But the Christian fables are pacifist to the core, and early Christian saints died for peace. They were conscientious objectors who refused to be drafted by the Empire of the day. The Old Testament God was often genocidal and even exterminated all of humanity in the Noah myth. But he too had a gentle loving side, and a pacifist reading of the OT is not impossible either. One nice story is how Abraham tries to talk God out of obliterating Sodom and Gamorah. He fails, but he gives peace a chance.

Quoting Wonderment: Onward, Christian soldiers!

Killing for Jesus is a really bad idea, especially considering he was a pacifist.

You might make a better case for slaying others with Krishna. Gandhi had to turn the Bhagavad-Gita upside down and inside out to derive pacifism from that story. But the Christian fables are pacifist to the core, and early Christian saints died for peace. They were conscientious objectors who refused to be drafted by the Empire of the day.

The Old Testament God was often genocidal and even exterminated all of humanity in the Noah myth. But he too had a gentle loving side, and a pacifist reading of the OT is not impossible either. One nice story is how Abraham tries to talk God out of obliterating Sodom and Gamorah. He fails, but he gives peace a chance.

Wonder, christians have both, and appeal to both. Carrot and stick. Not all carrot, never stick philosophies like you hold to. If it matters (it won't) there is a difference in ideal. The message of this tune and other themes is to die to protect others, not the more negative and malevolent theme many muslims take from Islam to

In both cases violence can be instigated. But please try to understand the difference in nature.

A distinction without a difference. Don't let yourself be brainwashed by a catchy tune, Jon. Grow up; embrace nonviolence. You'll still be a man. A better man.

One of those odd similarities between Lutheranism and Catholicism that probably is an ironic result of the schism. Lutheranism has also evolved from Luther's original work, and modern protestantism is barely recognizable. Luther was no Milton, but his level of scholarship was impressive. Update: I could be wrong. I learned about the story of Maccabees in Sunday School. I can't recall if we actually looked in the Bible as the teacher lectured, or if that was a lesson from supplemental material. Googling the canon of the various churches, I notice Maccabees is not canonical in the Luther Bible - I left my copy back in the States.

You might be right about the Luther Bible, but I did learn about Maccabees in Sunday School. The problem is, that students used the King James version, and my copy was my father's ~1950 paleolizard copy. I did grow up in a Catholic-dominated state, Maryland. I'm so ecumenical! I studied Luther in college, which is why I even refer to myself as a Lutheran in any fashion anymore. Being a Lutheran just made me a skeptic; reading Luther just impressed me. Now I use an NIV Bible.

Quoting Whatfur: Interesting article, Bong.

Seconded.

Firstly, that was an impressive article. Secondly, that was a very realist interpretation - human rights is very low on the hierarchy of state interests. Thirdly, what about the connection between Urumqi and Shanghai. Weren't the workers whose discrimination and actions the purported cause of the riots, living in Shanghai? Props!

One could always look at Jesus' reply to the Romain solder.

Never really liked The Ten Commandments much but it was because of the force-fed plot, plodding pace and alternating wooden/overbaked acting, not because I was turned off by the swarthy foreignness of Egyptians Cedric Hardwicke, Anne Baxter and Judith Anderson. Just thinking of bible-era scenes presented on film, it's hard to recollect any that were exceptional. I found nothing remarkable in either The Last Temptation... or The Passion... Wyler's masterful use of the Roman sergeant's shame at the well in Ben-Hur was one brief moment, so was the interrogation of the vagrant in The Master And Margarita.

Quoting JonIrenicus: In both cases violence can be instigated. But please try to understand the difference in nature. The avatars (christianity vs islam) are not equal in their ideas, and the consequences of those ideas matter.

Just recently I read a quote from a muslim soldier that summed it up rather well: "We love death more than you love life!" and yes, there were consequences.

But remember, there are millions of peace-loving muslims so we cannot criticize the bad apples because they are insignificant and that would make things so much worse. Plus the Muslims do a darned good job at policing themselves. And we must never apply a double-standard. That is why the murder of Dr Tiller is a logical extension of the Christian anti-abortion movement but the terrorist attack at Ft Hood had nothing to do with Islam, despite what the terrorist himself said beforehand. And above all, we must never use the words of their own spokesmen, or the results of their own actions as to make a case against them. And above all, never, under penalty of death, can we portray their prophet in cartoons. Peace be upon you.

Quoting nikkibong: alas, more self promotion

Quite good. Thanks for not hiding your light under a bushel. One thing I wish you had considered, though it may well be a minor factor, is the ordering of the two events. Do you think it is possible that the Uyghur uprising, coming second as it did, not to mention during a time when the exuberance over the possibilities in Iran was fading, contributed to their story getting less play? In thinking about it, I also have the sense that another contribution to the comparative apathy in the US was that the Iranian uprising would probably have been seen to the casual news consumer as coming from out of nowhere (new! exciting!), whereas the Uyghurs' story might have seemed like, meh, just another story about some remote corner of China where a bunch of sad sacks will get crushed by the government. Not saying these perspectives are correct, merely that they may have been typical of what Americans were thinking. Or, more to the point, what American newspapers would think their readers would be thinking. In the end, though, I think the Chinese government's ability to contain outward flow of information, compared to the Iranian

Quoting Baltimoron: You might be right about the Luther Bible, but I did learn about Maccabees in Sunday School.

Yeah, that it's in the Apocrypha doesn't mean it's ignored entirely, necessarily, so that wouldn't surprise me at all. It might have been included with the Bible, too, since I know lots of RSV and even KJV are bound "with Apocrypha."

thanks balt!

Quoting harkin: ....

And we must never apply a double-standard. That is why the murder of Dr Tiller is a logical extension of the Christian anti-abortion movement but the terrorist attack at Ft Hood had nothing to do with Islam, despite what the terrorist himself said beforehand.

...

Peace be upon you.

The left just has an aversion of looking evil in the eye and confronting it, particularly if not western. It is likely the source that causes so many of them to rail against christians based on the most infinitesimal influence in the man bites dog scenarios of abortion doctor murders as if it is an epidemic, and stay astonishingly silent in the face of wanton expressions of violence and undamped rhetoric. The fact is, murderers of abortion doctors receive no quarter from christians in ANY numbers worth mentioning. Can we say the same for their muslim counterparts? But the answer cannot be that it is something about them (it shouldn't be in my liberal utopian dream world, ergo it cannot be), it must have more to do with the external factors that population deals with, not their

Bob kisses Templeton funding goodbye!